Topic: Misc SW material

[Old Man]

Similarly, my wife and I took a liking to the Bay of Izar region from the 4th ed Master Atlas and developed some of the towns and sites therein. Since the intended project target moved to a new setting, we've parked development for now. If there's interest in that area, we'd be interested as well.

Happy Holidays,
Old Man

[metallion]

I can't wait for ICE to decide to act, I've got a campaign to run.  I started the clock in 6047, my 6050 wasn't Terry's 6050 30 years ago and none of the advancing timeline means a thing to me.

I've been telling ICE since 1995 that I have a ruleset called RM2 and will never buy a ruleset to replace it, the one and only thing that keeps me looking at ICE is the potential for Shadow World content that I can cannibalize to avoid having to paint in a corner of the planet myself.

ICE will publish more SW content or they won't.  It's be nice if they would.  I've even made it clear that I'm willing to pay them cash money for Terry's raw notes if they aren't in a position to turn it into a polished end product.

Now if everyone will pardon me, the South Commons Clinic Murdohobos out of Sel-Kai are navigating the roads from Bentara to Falnkenna as part of a plot to replace Bryce Korel as Rhungraf of Bentara with his forgotten sister Aylannah, and they've tripped across two demonic incursions, a haunted watch tower, and a feral vampire in the process - all of which is going to complicate their lives real soon now.

Shadow World will live on no matter what ICE does.

[RandalThor]

I love Shadow World, it is my second favorite game setting of all-time, with Dark Sun being the first. (Sorry, Terry.)

If ICE doesn't do anything with the setting, hopefully they will be willing to sell it to someone who does. (If it isn't too costly, I might even buy the rights.)

[chook]

It has been over 12 months since TKA died and that is long enough for ICE's counsel to finalise any outstanding issues.  Shadow World is unfortunately dead at this point.

[pastaav]

It has been over 12 months since TKA died and that is long enough for ICE's counsel to finalise any outstanding issues.  Shadow World is unfortunately dead at this point.

Considering how long we have been waiting for RMU I think that evaluation is a few years premature. ;-)

[Hurin]

Yes, and ICE folks did say that they plan to release Emer IV, but understandably they have quite a lot in the development pipeline, so that might take a bit.

[B Hanson]

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rmu-has-had-a-successful-launch-will-shadow-world-benefit/

What do you think?

[B Hanson]

A thread over at discord: https://discord.com/channels/737958249936060416/750324220533145680/1073712894912512041

It was brought up that there should be clear content guidelines if new third party SW material would ever be published. I actually drafted up guidelines about 10 years ago and have attached them here as an example. These are not official or ICE endorsed in anyway, but meant as an example of how such guidelines might work to create setting consistent material.

This dates to Feb of 2013.

[cdcooley]

I like those basic guidelines and your ideas of product types.

I agree that writing to the "canon" should be the first criteria. Anything added (but especially races, places, significant cultures, powerful individuals, or history) must not contradict the established Shadow World timeline and power structure. And while there are relatively isolated regions of the world (mainly thanks to the Essænce flows), there are few (if any) areas that don't have some interaction with Loremasters, Navigators, and the Unlife. If there's a "great evil" its very likely some local manifestation of the Unlife or one of its servants.

Anyone looking to submit content should be required to read the Shadow World Player Guide (GCP-SW-1001) and it should be used as the primary standard of whether the content fits into the world. At only about 50 pages, it's an excellent but concise overview of what makes the Shadow World unique. Of course, since it's aimed at players, it skips over some important content, so the Master Atlas and Powers of Light and Darkness are also important references for any content creators.

Second in importance to me is that there are already enough (too many?) world-level events, groups, and powerful individuals. What we need is more local and regional content. If someone really wants to write about the world-level events, then they should be fleshing out aspects of the latter parts of the Grand Campaign or giving more detailed adventures set in existing strongholds of the major powers.

One thing that isn't particularly important to me is which Rolemaster rules are used. Shadow World characters have never been entirely bound by the standard rules of any Rolemaster version. Many standard Rolemaster races are out of place on Kulthea, even more so for RMU's new races. And an idea based around Vancian magic ported to the Shadow World is going to be out of place. But generally as long as the concept doesn't directly contradict what can be represented in Rolemaster and doesn't violate the established world canon it should be fine.

[MisterK]

Anyone looking to submit content should be required to read the Shadow World Player Guide (GCP-SW-1001) and it should be used as the primary standard of whether the content fits into the world. At only about 50 pages, it's an excellent but concise overview of what makes the Shadow World unique. Of course, since it's aimed at players, it skips over some important content, so the Master Atlas and Powers of Light and Darkness are also important references for any content creators.

I would say that anyone looking to submit content should be required to read and integrate all canon products (those written by TKA), starting with the Master Atlas, and make sure they stay completely compatible with that base. There's nothing more irritating than opening a campaign module and being swamped with ideas that contradict canon, ignore the tenets of the world and the timeline, and disregard what has already been written and integrated in canon regarding the area they are using as a setting (I'm looking at you, Sky Giants of the Brass Stair).

Read the SWMA. Read the Player's Guide. Read Jaiman, Haalkitaine, Emer I, II and III, and Eidolon. Try to get the previous versions of those books to catch a few things that were removed in later editions (such as languages). Get Cloudlords of Tanara and Iron Wind - despite having been written before Shadow World was completely defined, they are more faithful to the canon than many campaign modules that were published later, and are more interesting than most as well.

And try to avoid generic adventures like the plague. Anchor your plots in the setting. There's no reason to publish a generic dungeon crawl for Shadow World - it does not do the setting justice, and it does not play into its strengths (I would also say 'try to avoid adventure hooks when someone pays the characters to do something' - if someone is rich enough to pay strangers an extravagant amount of money to do something, it means they need deniable assets or sacrificial pawns. The characters should fall into that trap only once, if at all).

[GrumpyOldFart]

"...it means they need deniable assets or sacrificial pawns."

Embrace the awesome power of "and."

[cdcooley]

I agree about not needing generic dungeon crawls and contradictory content in well-established locations (i.e. Jaiman and Emer). Anyone adding something on one of those continents really needs to know the area they are planing to use. And ideally authors would know everything about the setting, but in practice that's not a reasonable expectation for everyone who might want to contribute.

Kulthea's a big place so there's plenty of room for one or more authors to establish an entirely new set of cultures with unique adventures on one of the other continents. For someone creating something on Mythenis or Murlis, there's no need for any significant knowledge of Jaiman and Emer. But I would expect them to stay within the bounds of what little information is provided in the Master Atlas about their chosen continent and know something about the world-level powers. Only the Master Atlas would really be needed as a reference.

"Have you read the Shadow World Player Guide?" should be the initial question by ICE when receiving an initial contact from a potential content author. And if ICE puts out an announcement seeking authors asking them to read that 50-page document describing the setting should be enough to weed out the folks with ideas that really don't fit into the world. But yes, if someone wants to add to Jaiman or Emer, I expect more research to be required.

[MisterK]

I agree about not needing generic dungeon crawls and contradictory content in well-established locations (i.e. Jaiman and Emer). Anyone adding something on one of those continents really needs to know the area they are planing to use. And ideally authors would know everything about the setting, but in practice that's not a reasonable expectation for everyone who might want to contribute.

Kulthea's a big place so there's plenty of room for one or more authors to establish an entirely new set of cultures with unique adventures on one of the other continents. For someone creating something on Mythenis or Murlis, there's no need for any significant knowledge of Jaiman and Emer. But I would expect them to stay within the bounds of what little information is provided in the Master Atlas about their chosen continent and know something about the world-level powers. Only the Master Atlas would really be needed as a reference.

"Have you read the Shadow World Player Guide?" should be the initial question by ICE when receiving an initial contact from a potential content author. And if ICE puts out an announcement seeking authors asking them to read that 50-page document describing the setting should be enough to weed out the folks with ideas that really don't fit into the world. But yes, if someone wants to add to Jaiman or Emer, I expect more research to be required.

I expect people to read more than the Player's Guide and the MA not because of the factual information included in the other books, but to get more of a feel of what shadow world is and what it is not. Keep in mind that we didn't only get Sly Giants, but Gethaena as well (and, in my opinion, you could thrown Journey to the Magic Isle in the same bag for good measure). A unique sub-setting is good. A sub-setting that clashes with the atmosphere and 'feel' of Kulthea isn't. Basically, a new sub-setting must both be unique and fit in.

Which, incidentally, is a taller order each time the number of canon products increases.

[cdcooley]

I agree about the importance of new material fitting in, I'm just not convinced you need to be an expert in the world to achieve that.

I'm fairly certain the problem books were all written before the authors knew anything about the Shadow World. To be fair, even the second edition Master Atlas wasn't available until 1992. But I agree that too much of the content published in the late 1980s really doesn't fit the world and contradicts even the first edition atlas. It seems the ICE staff of that era made sure that the Rolemaster rules (and even Fantasy Hero stats) were well-represented, but had very different views than you and I about what was appropriate for the Shadow World. I think the "and may also be used as isolated or hidden areas in any Gamemaster's campaign world" blurb certainly applied. Unless that world happens to be Kulthea.

Magic Isle is a great example of something generic (or designed for another world) grafted into the Shadow World. It has a "College of Loremasters" founding an Elven center of learning in the Second Era. But that group apparently has nothing to do with the "College of Loremasters" who's founding actually marks the beginning of the Second Era of Ire. Really? Mysteriously all of the elves then left (I'm getting Middle Earth vibes on that one.) and now the isolated isle is filled with 27 powerful humans. Most of them are from Jaiman and Emer and then a few more are from cultures and races that aren't described fully and don't appear anywhere else. The big enemy is a Lich, but apparently with no connections to the Unlife. The Monk and Bard are standard Rolemaster versions, not the Amthorian variants most common in the Shadow World, betraying the preference for Rolemaster rules over Shadow World as a setting.

In thinking about getting a feel for the world, Terry's "Loremaster Legacy" should definitely be on the highly recommended reading list for any new authors.

[B Hanson]

So there are many opinions about what an authentic Shadow World supplement might look like. That's great as a consumer, but are you a content provider? Do you have SW material that adds to the setting? Tell us about it! The more interest, perhaps there is an equal response from the publisher!!  This is NOT an official submission process, just trying to gauge interest and intent.

[B Hanson]

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/shadow-world-religions-handbook/

Based on feedback (Hurin especially) I will be posting up "Canticles"; each a variety of perspectives, adventure threads and material on the various pantheons. My goal is 5 pages each, with another 50 pages on top of the handbook noted above.

[chook]

I agree about not needing generic dungeon crawls and contradictory content in well-established locations (i.e. Jaiman and Emer). Anyone adding something on one of those continents really needs to know the area they are planing to use. And ideally authors would know everything about the setting, but in practice that's not a reasonable expectation for everyone who might want to contribute.

Kulthea's a big place so there's plenty of room for one or more authors to establish an entirely new set of cultures with unique adventures on one of the other continents. For someone creating something on Mythenis or Murlis, there's no need for any significant knowledge of Jaiman and Emer. But I would expect them to stay within the bounds of what little information is provided in the Master Atlas about their chosen continent and know something about the world-level powers. Only the Master Atlas would really be needed as a reference.

"Have you read the Shadow World Player Guide?" should be the initial question by ICE when receiving an initial contact from a potential content author. And if ICE puts out an announcement seeking authors asking them to read that 50-page document describing the setting should be enough to weed out the folks with ideas that really don't fit into the world. But yes, if someone wants to add to Jaiman or Emer, I expect more research to be required.

I expect people to read more than the Player's Guide and the MA not because of the factual information included in the other books, but to get more of a feel of what shadow world is and what it is not. Keep in mind that we didn't only get Sly Giants, but Gethaena as well (and, in my opinion, you could thrown Journey to the Magic Isle in the same bag for good measure). A unique sub-setting is good. A sub-setting that clashes with the atmosphere and 'feel' of Kulthea isn't. Basically, a new sub-setting must both be unique and fit in.

Which, incidentally, is a taller order each time the number of canon products increases.

I agree with the principle of what you are suggesting and some of the practical.  Further to it however is that any submitted product/outline/draft should be reviewed by the ICE employee that is in charge of "Shadow World" in whatever position title that is (line editor?).  Their primary function is to be familiar with all canon material of the setting and any of the "plots" that are either in play and left open for individual gaming groups or perhaps even resolved in other supplements.  This is likely the role that Terry filled however as Shadow World seemed to be more of a hobby than a business venture that also created quite a bottle neck for product releases.

[katastrophe]

What I would love to see is RMU Shadow World conversion of the races and a few of the already printed NPCs. Maybe even a couple of the critters from an adventure or two.

It may just be me but that would go a long way in allowing people currently playing with the old material to TRY to move forward to RMU.

[MisterK]

What I would love to see is RMU Shadow World conversion of the races and a few of the already printed NPCs. Maybe even a couple of the critters from an adventure or two.

It may just be me but that would go a long way in allowing people currently playing with the old material to TRY to move forward to RMU.

That promotes RMU, not Shadow World per se.

I'll be honest, I'm not interested in RMU at all. Shadow World, on the other hand, is of interest to me, even as a system-agnostic setting (probably even more so as a system-agnostic setting).

[katastrophe]

Promoting the game and primary setting ties together. If material going forward is to be RMU, that makes it easier to produce more content for SW. material that people will pick up and use needs setting, stats, critters, etc. so the RMU conversion is necessary to get there.