Author Topic: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?  (Read 3888 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Attacking with two weapons, what rules do you use for the 2nd attack?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2015, 07:05:49 PM »
If using traditional (non-house ruled combat styles) then Two Weapon Combo (TWC) stays as is and, really, it doesn't change much with my process.  The 1H Weapon / 1H Weapon combat style takes the place of TWC.  I need to upgrade my own rules a bit though.

So, with any of the styles I've created you need to develop the style skill, the skill(s) for the weapon used, you use the lowest skill of the weapon or the style skill for base OB, roll a skill check to get into your 'stance' (the style skill), then your rank in your weapon determines which maneuvers you can use and you pay for those using exhaustion.  It sounds complex, but it's pretty simple once you're used to it.  However, like I said before, it hasn't been used extensively enough to determine if it needs to more tweaking before I ever put it forward as an 'official' idea for RM.
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Offline Green Manalishi

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I don't make the players learn TWC (I play RM2)
If he has 10 ranks in shortsword main hand, and wants to use two weapons, then he can pick up another shortsword with his left, and using similar skill has 5 ranks for the left hand, then the -20 penalty for offhand use.

Offline C.Tozer

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Hi all ... an old topic I know but if anyone is interested here are the rules I use for my games (using a mix of RM2 & RM Classic + house rules)

With the development point cost I lowered them from what they are in the RM2 rules (RAW says that the DP cost is simply doubled for each weapon). I felt at the time that was a bit high so added my own but maybe, on reflection they should simply be doubled, to stop really fast development of the skill ... hmmmmmmm


TWO WEAPON COMBO SKILL
Skill is used in two weapon combinations. With this skill the user may engage in two weapon combat without the -25 modifier. He gains 2 attacks each round, and may engage two opponents providing neither opponent is receiving any positional combat modifiers for their OB (e.g., If either opponent is receiving +15 for Flank Attack, +25 for Rear Flank or +35 for Rear Attack the individual cannot attack both opponents in the same round).
Against 1 opponent: There is no negative attack mod.
Against 2 opponents: There is-20 to both attacks.
Parrying: The user must reduce both weapon OB’s by the same amount.
•   Against 1 opponent, the user gains the parrying effect of 1 weapon.
•   Against 2 opponents, each opponent may be parried against equally.
Similar Skill: This skill only allows similar weapon skill for other two weapon combinations utilizing the same type of weapons.

DEVELOPMENT POINT COSTS FOR TWO WEAPON COMBO
Alchemist   20      Delver   12      No Proffession   3/6
Animist    14      Dervish   3/9      Paladin   3/6
Archmage   20      Druid   14      Ranger   3/7
Astrologer   20      Fighter   2/5      Rouge   3/6
Barbarian   2/7      Healer   20      Runemaster   20
Bard    4      High Warrior Monk   2/6      Sage   16
Bashkar   2/5      Illusionist   20      Scholar   12
Beastmaster   3/7      Lay Healer   15      Seer   17
Bounty Hunter   2/6      Magician   20      Shaman   14
Burglar   3/7      Macabre   14      Sorcerer   20
Cleric   13      Mentalist   15      Thief   3/9
Conjurer   20      Monk   4      Trader   3
Craftsman   4      Montebank   3      Warlock   19
Crafter   4      Mystic   20      Warrior Mage   3/7
Cyrstal Mage   16      Necromancer   20      Warrior Monk   3
Dancer   3/8      Nightblade   3      Witch   20

DEVELOPING TWO WEAPON COMBO SKILL
•   First, a character must separately develop normal Weapon skill ranks for each weapon in the hand that will be used in the Two Weapon Combo (TWC). These skills can be used separately without using TWC.
•   Then, the TWC skill must be developed to represent the user's ability to use the two weapons together in melee as outlined in RC2 p.42. A total of three skills (left hand, right hand and then the TWC skill) must be developed.
•   TWC skill must be developed separately for each weapon combination. Using the same two weapons in different hands counts as a different Combo.
•   A character uses the actual TWC skill as their offensive bonus to attack but the non dominant hand offense bonus is reduced by a quarter.

EXAMPLE: Garrot Felheart, the Fighter, has +87 with his morning star (right hand), +72 with his mace (left hand) and +60 for using both weapons together in a combination. Garrot is right-handed.
Garrot can make a single attack with either his morning star at +87 or his mace with +72.
Or Garrot can make a TWC attack in one round using an OB of +60 for his morning star (right hand) and +45 for his mace (left hand) – the left hand is his non dominant hand and the TWC is reduced by ¼.
When Garrot is flighting Rukas, a rather nasty half orc armed with a handaxe and shield, Garrot can attack Rukas twice in one round with +60 for his morning star) and +45 for his mace. Should Garrot want to parry +10 with his morning star on Rukas’s attack Garrot must decrease both his morning star AND mace attack by -10.
A round into the combat Rukas is joined by his brother, Snegga armed with a short sword. Snegga doesn’t managed to position himself to Garrot’s flank or rear and flights alongside Rukas in front of Garrot.
When Garrot attacks both Rukas and Snegga in the same round (morning star attack on Rukas and mace attack on Snegga) both Garrot’s OBs are reduced by -20; +40 with his morning star and +25 for his mace.
Again, should Garrot elect to parry at +10 he can parry both Snegga and Rukas’s attacks but both Garrot’s attacks are reduced by -10.

•   If a character is ambidextrous and they already have skill with using both of the weapons they don’t have to learn a skill in their “off hand” (ie they only need to develop the TWC skill as they will have the same proficiency in both hands with both weapons)

NOTE:The TWC OB for a weapon may never exceed its normal, one-hand use OB. The OB for the TWC must be the same or less than the OB for the lower of the weapon OBs used single handed.

GAMEMASTER COMMENT: While at first glance having to learn three skills (left hand, right hand and then the TWC) seems like quite restricting the idea behind it is to ensure game play balance. Being able to attack twice in a round is a big advantage hence requiring a bit more effort is required.





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Offline Tywyll

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thanks! this feels realistic to me. making a second, untrained attack with the off hand would certainly hinder your primary attack, otherwise everyone would be using two weapons wouldn't they?

im curious as to how many GM's out here allow the Two-Weapon Combo skill. Its very powerful.

No, that's not why people didn't primarily fight with two-weapons. They didn't because shields are paramount. Survival required the armor/deflection of a big hunk of wood or metal. Shields were also cheaper to make (usually) than a second weapon.

If you have ever larped or even just played around with cardboard tubes, a second weapon is almost always a benefit instead of a hindrance, even for an amatuer. But getting around a shield is difficult.

Offline EltonJ

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thanks! this feels realistic to me. making a second, untrained attack with the off hand would certainly hinder your primary attack, otherwise everyone would be using two weapons wouldn't they?

im curious as to how many GM's out here allow the Two-Weapon Combo skill. Its very powerful.

No, that's not why people didn't primarily fight with two-weapons. They didn't because shields are paramount. Survival required the armor/deflection of a big hunk of wood or metal. Shields were also cheaper to make (usually) than a second weapon.

If you have ever larped or even just played around with cardboard tubes, a second weapon is almost always a benefit instead of a hindrance, even for an amatuer. But getting around a shield is difficult.

What is interesting, people have -- in our past -- fought with two weapons. However, a shield is usually best.

Offline Vladimir

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  As a fencing instructor and long-time SCA heavy and rapier fighter, I've used pretty much every style of combat there is.
  Using two weapons was popular for awhile among the younger heavy fighters but they never attacked with both weapons at the same time -It was usually a quick series of alternate attacks, while keeping the weapons in front to ward off blows, similar to the local Filipino Escrima schools that teach two blades.
  Kensei Miyamoto Musashi preferred the strength of a single sword but recommended two blades when facing multiple opponents or trying to take a prisoner. 

  In rapier combat, most fighters who use two blades do so because they suck with one blade. I'll fight rapier with one blade and a free hand to grasp or pin one or both opponent's weapons (also an Escrima technique). I've also used twin blades to fight multiple opponents.
Yet, in almost 50 years on SCA fighting I've yet to see an advantage of using two swords over one. Yes, the second blade can be used to parry but I've seen fighters use a 6-inch diameter buckler with similar effectiveness and still have a free hand.

  In the SCA I spent most of my time in a close-order Saxon shield wall. A shield is far more effective than more people think and even after firearms, lasted well beyond the Renaissance until British cannon and musket formations swept sword and targe wielding Highlanders from Culloden Moor. In previous battles, even British Grenadiers had a problem when Highlanders charged into melee, using a targe to sweep aside bayonets and drive a dirk into the closest soldier and assail the next rank with backsword. Two weapons, sword and dirk, with the targe strapped to the left wrist.

  The point is, a fighter isn't launching two simultaneous attacks with two weapons -You won't get much power with those attacks because a strong swing means you are twisting your body to put energy behind that swing, which is why skilled fighters alternate swings to get multiple effective attacks. I'd keep it at a single attack with additional parry mods.

 
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