Topic: Applicable stats for black powder firearms

[Athelstaine]

I have a question. I am transfering my long running Warhammer campaign to rolemaster, as our group prefers Rolemaster over WHFRP. I do not have access to Fire Arm Law or Rapiers Point, but i do have 10 mill. ways to die.

I found the weapon tables, but i can not or have seen any stats that apply. For right now i am using the same stats as missile artillery [In/Ag/Re]. This is for the RMFRP system by the way.

Thank you.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I don't have access to any of those either, but just IMO I'd say either In/Ag/SD, In/Qu/Ag, In/Qu/SD or Qu/Ag/SD. Pretty close between em, I personally would probably use In/Ag/SD, Qu is already taken into account in first strike.

[yammahoper]

Ag is obviously important.  Sd could be important, and certainly could be used when representing being under fire, but as a casual shooter, I don't know if it applies to the ability to hit what your aiming at.  In does seem to work well representing proper technique, and I guess Sd could.  Re could too for tht matter.

Qu has nothing to do with hitting a traget so i dont believe it should be a stat used.

Ag/Ag/In.  Considering the nature of early black powder fire arms, Ag/Ag/Sd could be used.

I like the In/Ag/Re.  Hmm, guess i cold pull out my Spoace Master...now were did I put it?

[GrumpyOldFart]

Ag - Aim control, obviously.
In - Things like leading your target, allowing for wind, etc.
SD - The earlier you go in terms of the powder and weapon tech, the more you have to allow for a perceptible time lag between the trigger pull and the shot.

Qu has nothing to do with hitting a target so i dont believe it should be a stat used.

I can see your point, but I was thinking in terms of quick draw. The man with the speed edge has more time to steady his shooting before he's under fire himself.

[Athelstaine]

As crazy as this sounds would ST possibly fiqure in to reflect the recoil of the weapon? I have never fired a gun before, so i am not sure of how powerful the recoil was for those weapons. So i was thinking of [IN/AG/ST].

Any further thoughts?. Thanks for the responses so far. One of the reasons why i like to frequent these forums.

[Zat]

I use Ag, I looked at similar weapons and considered Crossbows to be as close to Black Powder weapons as anything else.
As far as In goes, wouldn't that then apply to most missile weapons?
St for recoil, I can see where you're going there, but the recoil happens after the aim is made, so should have little bearing on the OB.
SD....come on...lag? I can't see that one myself.

[Kristen Mork]

We've used Ag/In/St for powder weapons and Ag/In/Ag for energy weapons.

[GrumpyOldFart]

As far as In goes, wouldn't that then apply to most missile weapons?

Good point.

SD....come on...lag? I can't see that one myself.

Depends on how old the tech is, as I said. If we're talking about flintlock or matchlock weapons, we're talking about the click of the trigger, the flash of the primer, the boom of the charge, taking place over about the amount of time it takes to say "click-flash-boom." So yes, the same kind of self-discipline it takes to hold a video camera steady, back in the day before the circuitry helped keep things centered.

"Gunpowder weapons" encompasses weapons dating back to Henry V and Joan of Arc. Quite aside from time lag between trigger pull and firing, I'd expect it to take a lot of courage to fire a 15th or 16th century blunderbuss, or for that matter to stay within 20'-30' of anyone who did. Being too close to such early, cutting edge tech is as full of unknown hazards as hanging around an early atomic pile, for much the same reasons.

[providence13]

The video camera analogy is a good one, I think.
Hold your arm steady in front of you as if you're firing a weapon. Now breathe and pay attention to how your hand moves.  A small movement there, is a big difference to where the shot lands.
SD tells you when and when not to fire.

If the voices had only told Joan of Arc how to make an Atomic Pile...

[rdanhenry]

SD is more important for preparing your weapon, which was more and more critical the farther back you go in firearms history. If you are measuring powder, you must neither be too cautious for fear of your weapon blowing up in your face nor so generous as to cause your weapon to blow up in your face. You must carry out the procedures properly throughout loading, and this you will spend more time on than the actual shooting. This is a matter of self-discipline.

A steady hand is covered under Agility, really, which is why it is the primary stat for ranged attacks.

Weapon Law: Firearms uses Ag/St/Ag. I would substitute in SD for one stat for early firearms only. Standard method is to replace the last stat when substituting, so Ag/St/SD, although you might prefer Ag/SD/Ag.

[Athelstaine]

After consideration and reading all your replies. I think i will go with IN/AG/SD. I really liked the arguments made for SD and it sounds reasonable to me. Thank you all. My players agree to the ruling as well so all is happy here in wonderland.

[Zat]

Well, if you're going with SD, I hope you have no Elves in your group.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

St is an important stat due to the inherent weight of early firearms and recoil. I would consider SD only for skills related to the firearms skill.. not the firearms skill itself. I.e. Skills that speed up reloading, Sniping attempts etc.

[yammahoper]

While there is no mechanic I recall in SM or Firearms law for recoil, assigning a penalty to represent consecutive rounds of autofire would be appropriate and could be offset by superior St, mounts, etc.

The actual penalty would vary by muzzle velocity, but a set penalty of -20, or -25, or even -30 could apply.  I do not think it should be applied to three round burst, which is a technique developed to compensate for recoil.  If the penalty is set at -30, then a 100 St human could shoot with full control as long as ammo last.

[Marc R]

My only reservation would lie in the fact that all the above logic would apply equally well to crossbows, which are ag/ag/st like any other missile weapon.

Not saying I disagree, but just that it seems inconsistent.

[Zat]

I think it's Arms Companion in which crossbows were changed to just Ag. To be fair, I can see why, there seems to be very little use of St in using a crossbow (OB).

[Cormac Doyle]

In original RM, bows (including XBows) and firearms used a single stat - Ag

In later editions, this was changed to Ag/Ag/St

The St is rationalized as handling the recoil for XBows and firearms

For recoil-less weapons (energy weapons & blow pipes) you can arguably use Ag on it's own ... but I would not advise putting XBows, self bows or firearms into this category (unbalancing, esp for races with negative St modifiers ...)

[Zat]

Actually, I beleive Blowpipes used Co 

[yammahoper]

So...high Co isn't necessary to be a blow hard, but it helps...