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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Bill Ballbaggins on December 02, 2020, 12:03:09 AM
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Hi all,
Trying to modify some of the rules to make alchemist PC a little more viable in terms of playability in an adventuring sense. One of the things I am struggling with mightily is calculating the base material cost of general items - IE DB Ring +5 or boots of riding +10.
I know the general pricing rules in character law instruct you to take the base item price and then apply the modifiers for materials/bonus. But this appears to account for only metal items such as metal weapons and armors. So the 1gp broadsword that is +10 (40x multiplier) costs 40gp. That makes sense. But boots base cost is 1sp, does that mean that that +10 riding boots material costs are 4gp? and how do you figure intrinsic value then? same for a DB ring, the ring could literally be any cost from 1 bp to 100000gp depending on how you wanted to craft it. What should be the standard cost for such an item?
The only thing that I found through the sourcebooks that tries to chart this is treasure companion, but those costs differ from the character law on all items, and seems to be a bit higher than I would expect.
Does anyone have any clarity on this issue?
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I want to go over a couple of things before I get to your questions:
Book Problem: The Treasure Companion is a RMSS/FRP book and not RM2
Important points I got from your post:
a) RM2
b) Differences in rules
c) +10 boots of riding and +5 DB ring
e) Alchemist more playable
b) Rule Difference
In general the last rules replace existing rules, in RM2s case I think the RM2 Alchemy Companion would replace the core rules.
Yes they are often different as they tended to find issues or want to expand on issues/rules thus later editions replace previous editions or light editions of the rule set.
c) Riding boots +10 IMHO are an ok item but items that add directly to DB (all the time) are generally avoided. The no all the time items to DB vs an item that provides a shield effect (yes you can as a GM make an item that the shield spell only provides a +5 DB bonus) was something that was often discussed when I started on the ICE Forums back in the late 90's.
e) Making Alchemist more playable would be a house rule in which you could say in your game you need to multiple all item costs by .75668 (I just made up a number) to be playable in your game.
I do not know of a good way to make Alchemist more playable in RM2 as there are a slew of rules and options that can be used in the RM2 system and which you use or do not use can have huge effects.
In general:
Most RM2 games have been based on a low magic principle and few magic items. In a lot of RM2 games I have played in or talked to people about there are often a few low magic items, next to no mid level magic items and very, very, very few artifacts. To me that is how the magic item rule set was made to represent...also in a lot of fantasy games there is a large difference in money in middle class vs in the wealthy class, thus fewer midlevel items.
Hope that helps,
MDC
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We had an Alchemist in our group and there were no issues with him being "not viable." I'm not sure what you mean by that. What makes the Alchemist not capable of living? We had a pure spell user with no level 1 spells play perfectly well and excelled in many instances in the group until he hit level 2 and had access to spells and those spells still took 3 rounds to cast. He's level 3 now, so he's still surviving very successfully. If a spell user with no spells at all can survive to level 3, surely an Alchemist with spell lists can do the same?
Using an RMSS/FRP book/stats/rules in RM2 will cause issues as markc states.
"Cost": This is a topic that has popped in many threads regarding different thread topics (cost to make items, how to set an economy, what is <item> worth in your world...) My answer has always been "cost is relative." In a trading village in the fringe of the wilderness, gold is pretty useless; food, medical supplies, herbs, etc. would have far more value.
Does the GM hand out items for treasure or coin as treasure? Or gems?
Do the PCs have a large cache of silver and gold they carry around?
Is the GM a little less generous when handing out coin?
What is the cost of items in the City/Town/village/outpost they are in?
In your example of Boots of riding, how difficult is it to get leather for boots? Or the steel for the boots?
If the PCs have mostly silver and maybe 10 gold between them and the boots cost 150 gold to make, then the cost may as well be 1000 gold because it will take the PCs forever to collect that much gold anyway.
How many magic users are available to craft magical items? Scarcity of the skilled crafters will raise the price.
Does the GM want to control the amount of coin the PCs have access to? The cost for items will increase.
Is silver even wanted in the locale? In our gaming world, Dwarfs prefer gold and refuse "lesser" metals such as silver and especially bronze and copper. Only gold is accepted in most of the dwarf establishments in one particular region. (There are also extremely few elves in that region too, but that's a story for another time.)
The "cost" for any item is going to be dependent upon the economy in your gaming world.
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Hi all,
Trying to modify some of the rules to make alchemist PC a little more viable in terms of playability in an adventuring sense. One of the things I am struggling with mightily is calculating the base material cost of general items - IE DB Ring +5 or boots of riding +10.
I know the general pricing rules in character law instruct you to take the base item price and then apply the modifiers for materials/bonus. But this appears to account for only metal items such as metal weapons and armors. So the 1gp broadsword that is +10 (40x multiplier) costs 40gp. That makes sense. But boots base cost is 1sp, does that mean that that +10 riding boots material costs are 4gp? and how do you figure intrinsic value then? same for a DB ring, the ring could literally be any cost from 1 bp to 100000gp depending on how you wanted to craft it. What should be the standard cost for such an item?
Character Law page 25 has prices for base items. In your example the ring would be a constant item so the base price is 500gp. Multiplying that by 20 seems excessive. I'd instead add the cost of a +5 shield on top of it (since it could stack with a shield).
The bigger issue is time. If there is any sense of urgency at all in your campaign then they won't have the weeks needed to make even the most basic of items. We have an alchemist in our game and the party is very much on a time crunch as they're dying from The Great Plague. Early on I created a pocket dimension in the realm of dreams and they went through a short adventure to access it. Now they can visit it whenever they dream. There are several effects but the biggest one for the alchemist is that every night spent lasts one week subjectively. This gives more time for crafting and research.
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As a simple houserule, we just decoupled the cost of the enchantment from the base cost. The cost of an enchantment is in addition to the base cost rather than a modifier of it. We just use 1gp as the base cost of any enchantment, which is then modified by the bonus. So, your +10 broadsword remains 40 gp + base cost, for 40gp, 1 sp. The boots also cost 40gp + base cost, because the boots have the same level of enchantment (+10 or 40x).
This was the only way we could make it work, because if not, as you already can see, starting characters would just go out and buy +20 clubs for 2sp and the game balance is instantly broken.
RMU by the way outlines a system for essentially doing the same (decoupling cost of enchantment from base cost).
And I agree with Ginger -- I think one problem with making an Alchemist viable is the enormous amount of time it takes in RM to make even the most basic item. Characters really cannot ask for custom items to be made because it takes so long. That's a bit of a drag.
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When we played back in the 90s one of my favorite characters was an alchemist. But it was us trekking across an open world and encountering things as opposed to a true "campaign." We took breaks whenever we wanted so saying "we spend a year in Minas Ithil" wasn't a big deal. We bought and crafted tons of custom items back then
In our current game the alchemist is struggling to make a flashlight(projected light Daily I). I'd forgotten the time requirements when we started the game or I'd have recommended he play something different.
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Interesting post. Can always reduce to construction time requirements for Player Characters, to make it more "fun" to have an Alchemist in the party.
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Char Law vs Spell Law:
I do not remember if it was RM1 or RM2 but the item creation rules in Character Law were different then Spell Law, it was determined Spell Law was the proper rules. When and if you have the RM2 Alchemy Comp those were to replace the rules in Spell Law.
Note it does not mean that they are perfect in every way for your game.
RM2 Alchemist Upgrade:
This question has been asked in the past (two times since 2010 IIRC, and each time wanting to make items that apply directly to DB that are not armor) but I do not remember the original poster posting any update they made to the profession.
Items that are more powerful then they seem:
In RM some bonuses are generally in artifacts and not in general items and from memory it is not well explained in the rules. Generally items (except artifacts) to do add to DB (except armor), OB (except weapons), PPD (except artifacts and generally use PP mult or Adder rules) and I am sure there are a couple more that I am not remembering right now.
Examples:
A ring that adds +5 to DB is essentially giving a bonus all the time to defense, where as a item that provides a bonus to adrenal defense has the limitations that the skill does.
A ring that provides +5 OB provides the bonus to all combat skills, hands, daggers, swords, siege weapons (yes I have seen a GM do this) and some spell attacks (again yes I have seen some GMs allow or do this).
The two examples above are vastly more useful (and I would say powerful then boots that provide +5 to riding horses) and should be priced accordingly...if allowed at all in non artifact items.
MDC
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You can also reign in the generic bonus items by increasing the level of spell required. It's already slightly harder because it would require General I rather than Armor I or Weapon I. If you changed it to General II it would be even more work.
Maybe some sort of hierarchy:
+5 to a specific skill is General I
+5 to a category is General II
+5 to an overarching or very powerful area (such as DB or "all skills" is General III
+5 to all skills sounds amazing but it's a 15th level effect that takes a minimum of 4 months to create.
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I went back and read some of the item creation rules in RM2 Alchemy Comp and they had some good info there, for general enchantment items the item has to be used in the action to get the bonus, they have separate sections for weapons and armor.
Based on the info in the RM2 AlC I do not see how a General (Any) enchantment would effect DB as that comes under the armor rules. You could have an weapon that only provides a bonus to DB but that is different then a ring or other item give a bonus to DB.
Also DB is not a skill.
The things that would break the above rule(s) would be artifact items.
To get DB bonus from items you need to implant a spell(s) into the item and not use the general rules.
MDC
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Thanks to all for the replies. Couple clarifications and further questions:
In terms of viability, I referring to - as one poster pointed out, the time required to make items which is pretty unrealistic for an adventurer to take those kinds of breaks between questing. I don't think that an alchemist should be pumping out multiple magic items per week, but there has to be some kind of compromise where it doesn't require a 9th level alchemist and 16 weeks to make a level 3 potion.
Interesting discussion about the rarity/legality of 'DB' items. Coming from a background of a RM/MERP combination, there was always a pretty decent pool of DB type magic items floating around the various MERP modules so I didn't consider them as rare as some of you might. I do see that there is a fine line you need to balance between a +5 broadsword that gives you bonus only to using a broadsword, vs. something like a +5 to OB earring which is usable for practically anything (or the +5 DB ring).
I do like Hurin's suggestion and did consider that 1gp per base item minimum would solve some of the problems in calculating materials/inherent cost. However, I dismissed (maybe hastily) the idea of +500gp for any magic ring with a constant bonus - I thought that would refer to a spell embedded like a Ring of Flying. Constant is a lvl 30 spell so if you need that to make a DB ring, then yikes!
One thing that is not clear is the General I spell does not define that a bonus has to be for a skill, just 'general type magic items with bonuses can be enchanted'.
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The underlying problem is that, while time is a useful metric when you are trying to work out the economics of NPC production, it's not a very good choice as the controlling factor for what PCs are able to do. There's tremendous variability in the amount of downtime PCs get, and if you don't actively control the pace of events, they can take an arbitrary amount. Meanwhile the player has a great incentive to remove themself from the action so they can make stuff; that might seem like a good tradeoff at the time but it's not good for fostering engagement.
I think it makes more sense to keep standard production slow but give the players a shortcut that is reliant on something that you can control the supply of. Maybe it's a material they have to quest for, maybe it's components they derive from monsters, maybe it's ancient artifacts they need to break down and repurpose, maybe it's the very souls of the people they are crafting the items for (or their own), but something that is a limited resource in a way that time is usually not. Or, permit the alchemist a fixed amount of fast-crafted items based on their stats, e.g. as many "points" of items as they have ranks in the applicable spell list(s).
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I really should get to making my (homebrew) Witcher class for RMU. This is exactly how the videogames limit the Witcher's ability to make oils (for weapons) and potions and bombs. They have to find the reagents on monsters and extract them from their corpses.
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I'm playing with a system for potion making where:
* The spell lists have ~2 spells per level instead of the usual 1.
* Some types of effects don't work as potions; you can throw one and have it explode as a fireball, but it's not going to give you an aimed attack like a fire bolt. If you want to affect material, you generally need to pour the potion on it, so that affects range too.
* Creating potions takes 1 minute per level of the spell, and costs as many PP as the spell. You can make multiple potions at once, spending 1 minute per level for the highest level potion, plus 1 minute per additional potion.
* The potion lasts until used or lost. If it goes beyond your control, it expires.
* The PP spent making a given potion cannot be recovered until the potion has been used, expired, or destroyed. Essentially you are continuing to invest a small amount of power in the potion to keep it viable. You can keep a potion for months, but those power points aren't available to make or cast something else.
* You can use magical herbs or monster components to power the potion. In that case, the potion is permanent until used (and can be sold, lost, etc), and you can recover your PP normally. (I haven't fully worked out how much you need, but definitely related to the level of the creature, etc.)
The idea is that this type of alchemist is a more versatile than a regular mage, but they have to decide in advance what magical effects to prepare. The ability to sell potions is highly limited without special components, mitigating economic concerns, but the character is completely playable even without them, so that means they aren't dependent on the GM handing them stuff all the time.
I set this up because I thought it would appeal to a particular player, and then he decided to do something totally different. :) So right now, there is just one Dabbler with one alchemical spell list (Dabbler is the only profession other than the Alchemist I opened it up to), and consequently I have not tested it very thoroughly. However in one of my games, the party just had a large battle with golems (that are usable for extracting components) right in the middle of a city with an alchemy guild, so it did help me assign value to their bodies.
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* The PP spent making a given potion cannot be recovered until the potion has been used, expired, or destroyed. Essentially you are continuing to invest a small amount of power in the potion to keep it viable. You can keep a potion for months, but those power points aren't available to make or cast something else.
That's a really neat idea!
I would also like to see a Dabbler list or two that used these mechanics!
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pg 26 of the RM2 AlC is a good place to start looking at item bonuses and their descriptions.
Spell Descriptions:
Spell Descriptions are generally very short and at times you have to look at the rules in other places.
MERP vs RM:
MERP rules are different in many areas, many MERP items that I remember giving DB bonuses are lesser rings of power or greater rings of power.
MERP in general was a very light ruled product and thus you can find problems when you go beyond its design, IIRC it was designed for levels 1-10 and there are issues that can arise if you go beyond that and because of the focus on those levels.
In General:
The Alc profession IMHO is not supposed to be like it is in D&D 3-5 or the quick item creating adventurer.
Having said that I hope you find some house rules to fit your game.
MDC
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1) To make it easy what full rule book(s) do you have and or trying to use for your alchemist?
Why this is important? In the past (early 2000's) there were quite a few posts about people trying to play MERP and RM2 with just photocopies (or maybe Xerox's of) partial books and just spell lists as you would expect this is problematic in many areas.
Other issues from the past you may encounter:
1) RM2 Creatures and Treasures are fan submitted material and the items may not be able to be made with the most up to date rules or any rules.
2) Shadow World: IIRC there was some of the same issues with some Shadow World modules and items.
MDC
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I would disagree with the idea that magic items should be rare as MarkC has stated. This is a fantasy roleplaying system and not some SIMs game. In the instance of using RM in the MERP world clearly magic items including constant DB items were prevalent in the ICE modules. They had some crazy weird items peppered in those books. There were magic items all over the world of Tolkien. Seems to be a lot of not very fun RM games out if you consider a +5 DB ring an artifact. As a GM if an item is to powerful there are many creative ways to get rid of it after all. Bottom line is don't be a lazy tight ass GM. Let your players have fun and you will have more fun also. Regardless there is always a 66 crit lurking around the corner. After all Mow is Mow....
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Treasures of ME:
I just did a quick look at the book (and not at the modules I have) and the items that I saw that provided DB were generally crowns and talked about auras or mist around the wearer, the ring section talked about various rings that were IMHO lesser rings of power.
OG-GM,
If you have some books in mind please give me the names and I can check and see if I have them. I have sold some in the 90's and lost some so I do not have everything but I do know a few people that also might be able to check there collection for answers.
MDC
edit:
I should have also said that a lot of the DB bonus sounds like the presence spell on a continuous duration.
Note: The DB from items has been discussed in the past with the issues of not often saying where the DB bonus is coming from.
MDC
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As a long-time player of spell users, I've always found the restrictions on runes frustrating. If a 2nd level Mage can cast Shock Bolt, why can't that exact same mage create a *rune* of Shock Bolt (Rune II is a 6th level spell)? Although I understand the concept of balancing/restricting magic, this is one scenario that just never made sense to me.
It's due to this issue and Ballbaggins' comments re: Alchemists as PCs that he and I are working on new rules for creating items in our homegame. We're happy to share when they're done if there's any interest.
Another interesting part of this discussion is the topic of DB items. Looking at it from the perspective of OB, how does a +10 Broadsword *actually* increase your OB? And, if the type of steel alone (high steel for non-magic +10, enchanted steel for magic +10) is sufficient to increase your OB, why does a DB item require additional components like a Shield spell or constant duration? If you can increase your OB in some way, surely you can increase your DB in a similar fashion? After all, aren't OB and DB just shorthand for "ability to hit" and "ability to avoid being hit?"
I also feel like part of me automatically "gets" the concept of a +10 Broadsword increasing a character's OB...whereas I resist the notion of a +10 DB ring (perhaps it's the item - not the bonus or the skill - that's the issue?).
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You could improve the ability to hit by making the weapon cut better (e.g. a sharper edge), but OB is more versatile than that. You can parry and convert that OB to DB. So I think generally it's better to think of it as a weapon with better balance, better design, that is easier to move the way you need it to move. Better materials give the smith more freedom to balance the weapon better, you don't need the big heavy blade to be structurally strong enough, you can have a lighter blade of the same strength and put more of that weight into the pommel to balance it out.
That could apply to a shield, too, of course. You want it to be stronger and lighter, although not too light since it needs to have some inertia to block with.
What does the ring do? Presumably you're not actually blocking attacks with the ring. It could make you faster, quicker, more aware of attacks. It could make you harder to see. It could create a force field around you that slows down attacks. I think the issue here is mostly how those bonuses stack. If the ring makes you harder to see, it shouldn't stack with Blur or Aura. If it projects actual force, maybe it shouldn't stack with a Shield spell. Etc. By specifying a particular spell effect instead of a general bonus, you make that explicit.
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Main issues are:
item: armor provides a DB bonus thus needs the Armor Enhancement X spells
DB: It is not a skill so General Enhancement X spells do not work
Spells: In general are one of the only ways to provide bonus to DB (yes you could do it in other ways but I will not go into that)
MDC
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I think magic rings can do whatever they want. After all they are magic lol. Why can’t a magic ring increase DB or OB. I have not seen a rule against it. Has anyone else?
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What does the ring do? Presumably you're not actually blocking attacks with the ring. It could make you faster, quicker, more aware of attacks. It could make you harder to see. It could create a force field around you that slows down attacks. I think the issue here is mostly how those bonuses stack. If the ring makes you harder to see, it shouldn't stack with Blur or Aura. If it projects actual force, maybe it shouldn't stack with a Shield spell.
I think those are good questions, and I like those answers.
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RM2: C&T on their magic item generation chart (page 65 of medusa cover edition) have both belt and ring +DB items listed.
RM does offer multiple options for similar bonus items that i've seen = count all bonii, count highest bonus, and a couple of mathematical gymnastic options (half of highest plus lowest or some such). Something like D&D 3.5 could be helpful where magic armor gives +armor bonus, magic rings give +deflection bonus, etc. and only the highest of each type of bonus will apply.
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RM doesn't go that far, but at least in RMSS and RMU, it's explicit that you can't have multiple instances of the same spell cast upon yourself. You can't have higher and lower versions of the same spell cast upon yourself (e.g. you can't have Dodging I and Dodging III both cast upon yourself). And then there are specific rules for the spells, e.g. Enchanted Leather and Enchanted Robes can't be stacked with each other and also are not cumulative with bonuses from armor, so essentially they are giving the same type of bonus as +DB armor. The Light's Way list notes that none of the Aura spells (including Alkar) are cumulative with each other or with Blur (although this note unfortunately does not appear on every list for which it is relevant), so that defines a class of visual-type defenses that don't stack.
So, for an item that casts a spell or gives you the effect of a specific spell, there is a stacking rule. For a non-armor item that gives you undefined bonus DB, there's not.
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C&T:
Items are fan made and may or many not follow the rules.
Some SW Modules:
The ICE moderator before me who had been around ICE since the early 90s (IIRC) said there was a time they were trying to up SW module sales by putting in more magic items. I think he also said they were trying to be more AD&D like thus tended to not follow all of the official rules.
Q: Can you make a ring that provides a bonus to DB with the armor, weapon or general enchantment spells?
A1: Only if your GM rules that rings are armor then the armor general enhancement spell and rules work.
A2: When looking last night to create a ring the provides an effect to provide a DB bonus of +5 I came across this rule in RMSS SL (I have the book cut apart and in sleeves for easy use), under a section it gives a rule zero answer, the GM has the right to declare items can be made in any way for their game. This is great for your game but not often for official rules and or writing official supplements or modules.
Q: Can you make a ring the provides a bonus to DB?
A: Yes by placing a spell in it that provides a bonus to DB. You can either have the ring have a number of "casts" of the spell or you can have the spell have a duration of the length of your day (essentially constant) or you can use the rules for making the spell continuous (IIRC that is the name of the property)
Challenge/Question:
How would you?
Make a ring that provides only +5 DB and no other effect? Please state RM2 book, page #'s and rules where appropriate.
MDC