Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: Rerednaw on June 26, 2020, 12:59:15 PM
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Now I cannot speak for high level effects as most of my RM has been levels 1-5.
But I can say that in many games by mid to upper tiers, magic usually trumps non-magic.
So what is it about pure essence/channeling/mentalism that makes them so much better than non/semi at low levels? I'm looking for specific examples of play. Like 'Our warrior-monk was helpless against the orc, but our level 1 sorcerer came in and vaporized him in a single shot with spell X.' Or is it semi/hybrids that break the balance?
I could see where non-combat effects (clairvoyance) could break encounters or adventures like "find the guilty party" and a high-level mentalist goes "okay I read everyone's mind" but these are not options in most games because these kind of spells do not usually appear till much later.
Problematical spell lists (and what was it that made them an issue) that you have encountered would also be helpful.
I'm trying to avoid pitfalls in my RM games. Thanks! :D
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I don't classify it as broken, but it is extremely useful - I had my Fighter have it: Anticipations List. The first two spells are Anticipate Missile* and Anticipate Blow* (for melee attacks). So, for a -10 for casting an instant spell, you get a +50 bonus to DB for an attack. Dodging missiles for 1 PP and a whopping -10, good stuff. Only 2 PP for avoiding a melee attack. Those spells really saved my bacon a few times.
Also, the second level of the Cloaking list is Shadow. Get a +25 to +75 on Stalk/Hide (specifically hide, of course) for 10 min/level. I combined these spells to basically become Fantasy Batman. ;D If that campaign had continued (people moved), I would have gotten 2 ranks in the Movement spell list.
In RM, I say that even non-casters should have picked up 2 ranks of Power Point Development, and from 4 to 6 - perhaps more - ranks in spell lists that will either assist them do what they do better, or open up new options. There are some good low level spells out there.
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So what is it about pure essence/channeling/mentalism that makes them so much better than non/semi at low levels?
A lot of this depends on play style. What is interesting about this question is I, and my extended RM group, find the opposite to be true. Casters suffer at lower levels in our experience and pure arms users have a significant advantage at lower levels, pure/hybrid casters eventually have more dominance, them, then semi-spell users eventually pass all of them up.
Some of this has to do with how we deal with exhaustion points, but more of it simply has to do with versatility in my opinion. At low levels having a good selection of spells is simply too costly, so casters have a limited set of options limited further by spell points and casting times. But as they gain more lists and, therefore, more options they surpass the arms users. Eventually semi's get the best of both worlds and, due to diminishing return eventually everyone ends up relatively equal more or less at very high levels (levels most players never see).
A lot of RM users seem to stop around level 7-8 or so from all the various comments over the years and that's only about at little less than half way through the scope I refer to in the life of that balance.
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The imbalance of the level 1 & 2 Instant spells is a pretty good example of low-powered casting being very effective. Also, in general, the RR mechanic (as clunky as it is) gives you a reasonable chance of being effective at levels 1-3 vs. foes that are a few levels higher than you are. If you are using RMSS/RMFRP where spell casting is a static maneuver, I think in the RM world, that's the largest advantage.
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A lot of RM users seem to stop around level 7-8 or so from all the various comments over the years and that's only about at little less than half way through the scope I refer to in the life of that balance.
I dream of playing a high level RM game! By high level I mean 20+ (in Shadow World, make that 50+ !)
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So what is it about pure essence/channeling/mentalism that makes them so much better than non/semi at low levels?
A lot of this depends on play style. What is interesting about this question is I, and my extended RM group, find the opposite to be true. Casters suffer at lower levels in our experience and pure arms users have a significant advantage at lower levels, pure/hybrid casters eventually have more dominance, them, then semi-spell users eventually pass all of them up.
Some of this has to do with how we deal with exhaustion points, but more of it simply has to do with versatility in my opinion. At low levels having a good selection of spells is simply too costly, so casters have a limited set of options limited further by spell points and casting times. But as they gain more lists and, therefore, more options they surpass the arms users. Eventually semi's get the best of both worlds and, due to diminishing return eventually everyone ends up relatively equal more or less at very high levels (levels most players never see).
A lot of RM users seem to stop around level 7-8 or so from all the various comments over the years and that's only about at little less than half way through the scope I refer to in the life of that balance.
Actually except for a few corner cases (say Sleep V at level 1)...Anticipate Blow/Missile and so forth I agree with the premise that in RM, pure casters appear weaker at low levels. But I was curious as for folks who have played. I've only been in a few games and had similar experiences. A fighter who's dabbled in the Anticipations list was about unstoppable in melee compared to just about any other combination after a few levels.
Pure spell casters get a lot of lists...but since in many cases, the best options are only a few of them, more lists <> more powerful than 1 or 2 well developed good lists.
I mean the apparent disparity of some spell lists...compare Anticipations (Mentalism, open) with Attack Avoidance (Mentalism, open). For both lists, the first two spells seem to serve very similar functions. Except for Anticipations the bonus is 50 and Attack Avoidance it's 20. But I guess that's a topic for another discussion.
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I don't classify it as broken, but it is extremely useful - I had my Fighter have it: Anticipations List. The first two spells are Anticipate Missile* and Anticipate Blow* (for melee attacks). So, for a -10 for casting an instant spell, you get a +50 bonus to DB for an attack. Dodging missiles for 1 PP and a whopping -10, good stuff. Only 2 PP for avoiding a melee attack. Those spells really saved my bacon a few times.
I second this, and I would even call these first two spells as broken, compared to other spells. E.g. we have the Attack Avoidance list, which is also Mentalism and also an Open list, with two similar spells at level 1 and 2. But these spells only grant a +20 DB bonus. The two spells on the Anticipations list grant a bonus of +50 that can otherwise be found only at level 6 or upwards. Therefore we have a House Rule in our group that adjusts the DB gained by these two spells list those on the Attach Avoidance list, so that they also only add +20 to DB.
Also, the second level of the Cloaking list is Shadow. Get a +25 to +75 on Stalk/Hide (specifically hide, of course) for 10 min/level. I combined these spells to basically become Fantasy Batman. ;D If that campaign had continued (people moved), I would have gotten 2 ranks in the Movement spell list.
In RM, I say that even non-casters should have picked up 2 ranks of Power Point Development, and from 4 to 6 - perhaps more - ranks in spell lists that will either assist them do what they do better, or open up new options. There are some good low level spells out there.
I also agree. Regarding the Shadow spell, in our group it only helps not to be "seen". If the character using Shadow has a low bonus to Stalking/Hiding it may happen that he does not get seen (in the first moment) but still gets heard. But the combination of Shadow and a Silence spell is really great...
More spells to add that are somewhat unbalanced are all kind of instantaneous attack spells. I've once played a cleric that used Stunning / Blinding / Golden Slumbers on his enemies while parrying. Using 10% activity for an attack spell and 90% activity on parrying makes the character almost invincible in a 1:1 fight. We fixed this in our House Rules by judging that instant attack spells require 75% activity but no preparation (as was the case in RM2 with these spells).
IMO instant spells were broken in RM2 as well as RMSS/RMFRP. RM2 made instant spells like Bladeturn etc. quite useless because these spells would require a full round to cast and the spell caster could do nothing but add to the spell's bonus to DB. In a 1:1 situation this made using this spell silly. You could use this spell for a few rounds until running out of PPs and then die. Better try an attack spell instead. The same is true for many other instant utility spells. A mage could use them as support spells. But why would a mentalism user every cast Bladeturn, if it could only be used on himself and he could do nothing else besides? Better parry normally and be flexible on how much to parry and how much to use on attacking. The change to a 10% action in RMSS made instant utility spells finally useful. But at the same time it broke the instant attack spells. For these only the preparation round should have been removed.
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On the Shadow spell. I always remind players that it amplifies existing shadow. So, animals/monsters with night vision are not as fooled by it as a human. And that perception also includes sound (and smell) so, I'll apply the resulting roll separately - you could have a partial success for sound and a success for sight be a common occurrence.
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I've had the same gripe about instant spells for years Ecthelion. As I understand it they were intended to be an "interrupt" action or an action that can be cast without spending 90% of your round. I recall the text explaining that they take 75% action, but, the action is cool-down. In RMX (my system of choice) they were cast as a short action (less than 50%) and happened before all of the attacks etc which all use 50% or more action. A third method for handling them. LOL. The benefit of RM2/RMC & RMX was that although the spells were unbalanced you still had very few PPs as compared to RMSS/RMFRP - when the OPd level 1 spells combined with having a huge pool of PPs it became silly IMO.
The Leaping & Landing spells always got me too. Because you could leap 50ft as an instant action, land behind a foe, and reap the benefits of the positional modifiers to attack.
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I agree completely with Ecthelion and Witch King about Instant spells. I posted (post #32) a little history of how these spells got successively reduced (from RM2 core to RM2 Companions to RMSS and now in RMU) from 75% activities to 50% activities to 10% activities to 0% activities:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18590.msg223459#msg223459
While the spells were transformed from 75% activity to 0% activity, some of the text remains virtually or even exactly the same. It needs to be updated.
I didn't have a problem with instant attack spells when they cost 75% activity. I do have a problem with them when they cost 0% activity (especially when they are Area of Effect spells!).
Bladeturn also becomes somewhat problematic when the same thing happens to it. It's not as useful for pure casters, since as noted it prevents them from doing anything offensively. But for a Semi-spell user such as a Paladin, it is incredibly powerful to be able to add +100 DB and still attack at full OB -- especially in systems (RMSS and RMU) where Power Points are so abundant. The main limitations on the spell that were in place in RM2 -- the 75% casting cost and the relatively high PP cost -- are gone entirely.
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Oh, also: I think the successive reduction in activity % for 'Instantaneous' spells was originally done at least partly in error, because of a misunderstanding of what the word 'Instantaneous' meant.
The name 'Instantaneous' was not the best for these spells because it easily led people to think these spells took no activity % at all to cast, when really, 'Instantaneous' just meant they took no preparation rounds -- they still took 75% activity to cast in the original rules (RM1/2). But that distinction was later misunderstood (especially in the RM2 companions, when new initiative systems were offered) to mean not just no prep rounds, but also no (or very little) activity to cast. The change was then enshrined in RMSS/FRP, and assumed by default in RMU.
But we should remember that changing a spell from 75% to 10% or 0% activity can transform it from useless to overpowered very quickly.
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I'm glad I'm not the only person who scratches his head at the Instant spell conundrum.
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We just never had a real problem with instant spells in RMSS. Power points always ensured it was a short lived advantage at low levels. If you're enforcing the one spell per round rule even more so. We did say that you cannot cast more than one offensive spell per round. But we really didn't see that problem until players started getting pretty high in level (Cleric's 'instant' Absolution for example).
Personally I'll let the player cast them instantly (they do have to interrupt what they're doing in most cases) and as many defensive instants as they want. However, I will also ensure that players are not under the impression that they'll be able to re-coop their spell points after every fight. There is a dramatic difference in balance between being able to blow all your power points in one combat and having to conserve them based on the fact that you may not be able to rest up every single time.
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I second this, and I would even call these first two spells as broken, compared to other spells. E.g. we have the Attack Avoidance list, which is also Mentalism and also an Open list, with two similar spells at level 1 and 2. But these spells only grant a +20 DB bonus. The two spells on the Anticipations list grant a bonus of +50 that can otherwise be found only at level 6 or upwards. Therefore we have a House Rule in our group that adjusts the DB gained by these two spells list those on the Attach Avoidance list, so that they also only add +20 to DB.
Here's the difference between Anticipations and Avoidance: Anticipations is only you while Avoidance has range so it can be used for others. If the mentalist is all hidden (like invisible or something), or otherwise not worried about being attacked that round, they can help out someone else with the spell. Of course, if I was playing a full mentalism spell user, then I would have both lists, one to help out others and one to help out myself.
That is not to say that other spells aren't bad options, because there certainly are spells that I feel are pretty useless (I am looking at you Warrior Mage's Combat Ways list, specifically the Split Parry, Split Attack and Snap Attack spells). But I say, don't weaken the good ones to fit, bring the weak ones up to fit.
PS: I forgot to mention another cool thing about the Shadow Spell: as you are basically a solid black shadow, it should be nearly impossible to be recognized. No facial features or anything for anyone to see. Only someone who really knows you should even have a chance of recognition, and then it should be pretty difficult. Magical means of id will be needed I believe. It could also be used to scare people, perhaps to assist in an intimidation check...
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On the Shadow spell. I always remind players that it amplifies existing shadow. So, animals/monsters with night vision are not as fooled by it as a human. And that perception also includes sound (and smell) so, I'll apply the resulting roll separately - you could have a partial success for sound and a success for sight be a common occurrence.
Nope. It says, "Caster and objects on his person appear to be a shadow." That says the spell affects the caster and not other things around, which is why it cannot be used by others.
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IMHO RM in general has always (as virtually every other fantasy rpg) have the same issue.
Arms users will always shine at low levels, and stall out at mid to high levels.
Pure's suck egg at low levels but become totally awesome at high levels.
Semi's are always suffering but at the same time they're always useful. They will run circles around nons at higher levels, but will always be in the pure's shadow when it comes to displays of raw power.
All around, Semi's arguably makes the most well rounded characters if you can stomach never having enough DP.
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Given enough time the semi's will outshine both the pure casters and pure arms.
It's just that most RM users don't seem to reach those levels.
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Semis get the most story share. That's not always the same as being the most powerful, but between the skills (including combat) and the magic, they have something to do more often than anyone else.
An Arms character can be extremely good at something, but they lack versatility. In combat, they will typically be very good at killing one foe at a time. Whereas a mid to high level caster may have attack options, but also battlefield control, defense options, buff spells for support, summoning, etc, and they can likely attack multiple foes at once. Even in combat they are more versatile. And outside of combat, their spells replace a lot of skills, so even more so. Storywise, information spells are often more effective in advancing party goals than skills are. To address that, you have to make skills more important.
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I bloody hate casters... :) In my opinion (but this can be more player related than system related) our casters put all their dp into getting higher and stronger spells. While I do understand this it leads to glass cannons at the table which I simply dislike for the roleplay. They neglect basic other adventuring skills which other classes at least put points into.
If it comes down to spells which are not balanced I think invisibility is one of our greatest problems. It is a spell which can be cast upon others and only a lvl 4 spell. It gives such an unfair advantage that it's hard to counter without it becoming a meta-contest and every location or caster in the world automatically has detect invisibility.
Once our mage reached higher levels he would combine: "Invisibility, fly" and once safe above the battlefield it would start raining fireballs which (if I remember correctly) don't break invisibility.
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Offensive magic does break invisibility.
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Indeed, I was mistaken. Still, the invisibility spell is very powerful.
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Once our mage reached higher levels he would combine: "Invisibility, fly" and once safe above the battlefield it would start raining fireballs which (if I remember correctly) don't break invisibility.
That fireballs, like all other offensive spells, break invisibility was already mentioned. In addition, similar to combat from horseback where mounted combat skill needs to be developed and is limiting the OB, we require Aerial Combat to be developed for combat while flying. That does severely limit the spell combat abilities while flying. In our game combat spells while flying are therefore practically non-existent.
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Once our mage reached higher levels he would combine: "Invisibility, fly" and once safe above the battlefield it would start raining fireballs which (if I remember correctly) don't break invisibility.
All offensive actions break invisibility.
I've had the pleasure to GM a lvl 20 RM campaign (with custom magical energy rules) where one caster had flight and invisibility spells and systematically cast them on the whole party (extended flight, just to be sure). Another one was an Armsmaster with the mental link tactical spell. And they used it. Every time they could. And I did not find it broken, because I knew about it, so I knew what could be a challenge and what could not. Flight and invisibility do not protect against illusions (but attacking illusions do break invisibility). They are active spells, so are detected by basically any magic detection capability. The characters were still physical, so were vulnerable to a number of area effects. Dispelling suddenly became a major risk. And so on. Basically, it gave the characters a very powerful "first strike" capability that they could not use safely all the time. which was exactly what I was looking for, even though I had not foreseen it :)
I knew most fights would either start with them ambushing the opposition, or with them being surprised by a sudden attack they had not anticipated. It put more emphasis on information gathering and preparation, which was a nice side benefit.
In the same campaign, one of the players was playing an Enchanter (Mentalism Co, hybrid). The player very quickly discovered how unbalanced the spells could be (level 20 characters, remember), and it could have been OP if he had not applied self-restraint (the character had a good background reason to be a bit reluctant to use invasive mental magic).