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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Ginger McMurray on January 15, 2020, 01:57:27 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that Runemasters are very powerful and should be handled with care, but I can't find it anywhere. Does someone know where that was and what the reasoning behind it was?
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In RMC-V The Forcemage, Maleficant, and Wizard come with caveats that they may not be appropriate for all gaming worlds and should be considered carefully.
However, I think you are remembering RMC-III Magus pg. 15:
"NOTE: Because of the difficulty of playing a Magus and the potential power inherent in this profession, GMs and players should carefully confer before starting a character with this profession."
I mention the Magus because in the description it refers to a Rune Master.
(also pg. 15):
"The Magus is a spell user who studies and utilizes magical words, names, and runes (i.e. individual letters and symbols). Thus the Magus is also referred to as a Rune Master, Cabbalist, or Power Word Mage."
The Magus can also be a Hybrid, Pure Essence, or Pure Channeling spell user at time of creation. The Pure Channeling version has lower combat skill development costs.
The reason for the power warning is due to the nature of the spells and spell lists. Paraphrasing... the Magus is more focused on the actual permanent power of runes in enruned items. As those permanent runes are more powerful than the temporary runes of the Bladerunes Spell list, the potential power of the Magus is greater. "In terms of combat, the Magus is much more dangerous if he is prepared ahead to receive his enemies than if he must act quickly."
For spell lists, "Power Words" states the list is concerned with power over the physical world. The level 1 spell "Shield" provides +30 DB vs melee and +40 DB vs. missile. The level 1 PCs in my groups average about 20-30 OB. That spell would negate their OB essentially.
The level 3 spell "Warp/Jam" is actually one spell with two levels of power; level 3 and level 7. Casting it as a level 7 spell obviously does more damage, but the spell list also has another level 7 spell "Glamour." It's like a bonus spell. Level 6 and level 9 are also dual power spells. As the list contains 20 spells for level 1-20, the caster is actually getting 23 spells for the cost/effort of 20 spells.
Level 8 is "Bleed" and has a -20 RR modifier and the severity of the bleed rate is based on the amount of RR failure. Yeesh. That could get messy on a bad roll.
The spell list "Command Words" deals with command over sentient beings; Calm, Truth, Confuse, Fascinate, Great Command, etc. Command over over physical powers and command over sentient beings is a pretty powerful combo. It's also mentioned several times that the magus forgoes Directed Spells ability for more combat-focused abilities. For a spell user, he's more adept at combat then another pure spell user.
If the PCs are interested in crafting their own items, the Magus is able to create similarly powered items at a lower level than a Bladerune or Alchemist, but it takes a little longer for the Magus. While a level 20 Alchemist can enrune a sword, the Magus can do the same item at level 16, but it will also take slightly longer. The reason is that the Magus focus on more powerful magics of the permanent runes vs. the less permanent of the other similar classes. (Paraphrased from RMC-III pg. 64)
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That's the one. Thanks!
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That's the one. Thanks!
That was fast!!! I just posted that. LOL
You're very welcome. I never delved into the Magus spell lists. They're pretty nasty.
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That's the one. Thanks!
That was fast!!! I just posted that. LOL
You're very welcome. I never delved into the Magus spell lists. They're pretty nasty.
I told it to email me.
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Back when that companion came out, I had a player play a Magus, and I do remember thinking it was a bit OP. I think the combination of strong combat abilities plus out of combat crafting runed items proved problematic. I cant remember which specific spells caused grief though.
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There's actually a Runemaster in RoCo. II...
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There's actually a Runemaster in RoCo. II...
Which is why I mentioned RMC II in the post title. :)
I suppose I should start using "RoCo" instead of "RMC."
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I suppose I should start using "RoCo" instead of "RMC."
People here use either I think, but RoCo avoids ambiguity.
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Runemaster is RC2. Magus is RC3. Yeah they are both pretty powerful. Magus can make magic items, which is mainly why they can be powerful. They can do things at lower level than Alchemists, but take longer (and game time is often not a big deal for some campaigns).
Runemaster Command Words are mostly (all?) instant cast spells - which to me is why they are very powerful. They are one of the very few casters with instant cast direct damage spells.
Magus also has Great Commands, which are a variety of powerful spells, and Spirit Runes are also great in crafting items and normal castings.
Mal
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Which is why I mentioned RMC II in the post title. :)
Yes, but then you said about the Magus that is was "the one", so I mentioned the RoCo. II RuneMaster in case the Magus was actually not the droid profession you were looking for!
Yeah they are both pretty powerful. Magus can make magic items, which is mainly why they can be powerful.
The Magus is "merely" quite powerful, whilst the RuneMaster has arguably one very broken spell list and most certainly the most broken RM2 spell until the "Combat Companion"...
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The Magus is "merely" quite powerful, whilst the RuneMaster has arguably one very broken spell list and most certainly the most broken RM2 spell until the "Combat Companion"...
Which spell is that? And which one supplanted it?
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Someone wants to min-max his character. ;D
The spell is Sigil of pain, on the "Rune Law" spell list. Why?
- It's on a base spell list, not a special, nor even an Arcane spell list,
- It's a level 9 spell, thus available in a B or C pick,
- It's a sigil. Why is it important? Because to inscribe a normal level 9 spell, one needs to cast as well a Rune IX spell, which is a level 18 spell, and a Rune Paper X, which is a level 14 spell. Since it's a sigil, one may directly inscribe it without the need for a Rune x and, logically as it's between the Rune IV and Rune V spell, only a Rune Paper V, which is a level 9 spell,
- It's an area effect spell that depends on the caster's level, being 10'R per level of the caster,
- Now the fun part: it inflicts damage that depends on both the amount by which the RR missed and the caster's level. In fact, each target takes a number of hits equal to the amount they missed their RR times the caster's level divided by 5 (round up),
- It's a Runemaster's spell, meaning that, usually, the character knowing it has also access to the "Sigil/Runes Imbedding" spell list.
Now, an example, to make it clear.
Let's take a level 10 Runemaster, which is not that high.
First, with the spell itself, said Runemaster affects an area of 100'R (!) and inflicts to opponents in hit points damage twice the amount they missed their RR. Miss it by 20, which isn't that much, and it's a whooping 40 hit point damage!
Starting level 11 however, a Runemaster starts to become a true heavy artillery mob cleaner. Why? First, he inflicts thrice the amount his opponents missed their RR (in an area of 110'R)! Then, "Sigil/Runes Imbedding", spell level 11, Imbed V. What does it mean? Well, he may start imbedding the Sigil of pain himself (i.e., non for some external help, for instance from an Alchemist) on "rune paper or some similar fragile organic material" (such as... his own clothes!). Since he has access to at least Charge wand, a level 8 spell, he may recharge himself his cloth (he may still need to have an Alchemist "create" it as a wand first, though, as he doesn't know Make wand). Sure, it takes 8 weeks to do so but he may just have several clothes, make sure one is always fully charged, and charge the others whilst adventuring. Or even overcast with preparation Charge rod... Then, when needed, he may now cast every round or so the sigil. ;D
So, yeah, for your Big Bad, just have a level 16 Runemaster. Four times the amount his opponents missed their RR in an area of 160'R, with the spell cast every round (regardless of how you consider it, the sigil is a level I spell for the Runemaster at such a level) whilst not expending PP (it's a sigil...). Oh, and Charge staff, so he may cast it 100 times with no problem. :wave:
As for its successor, I'll let the suspense build a little longer. ;)
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As for its successor, I'll let the suspense build a little longer. ;)
To be honest, it was more because I had a meeting but…
Anyway, as you can see, the spell in itself is very powerful. How may it broken status (because there's even more to it!)? Well… did I mention it was a sigil? Meaning it exists in order to be inscribed on a rune paper. To be used by anyone (who can read runes). ANYONE. And all you need is a level 10 Alchemist and a level 10 Runemaster.
Just imagine… On one side, an army of thousands of soldiers, averaging level 5. OTOH, merely hundreds of people with dozen of rune papers (even less, if the available Runemaster is level 11, as each rune paper has several charges) of the same level, but specialised in reading this sigil…
Heck, the mere existence of this spell makes pretty much obsolete EVERY rune paper with an offensive spell inscribed, as such an operation requires the casting of a Rune x spell, whose level far exceeds the level of the offensive spell, whilst this sigil doesn't require it. Its mere existence. Any one able to acquire a rune paper with it on it would, especially the chargeable version.
See? Broken as hell. ;D
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Runemaster Command Words are mostly (all?) instant cast spells - which to me is why they are very powerful. They are one of the very few casters with instant cast direct damage spells.
At first I thought it odd that Runemasters would have such powerful "spoken word" spells when they are a symbol/writing based profession. But then I realized the runes would each have a single name for themselves so I guess this makes the Command Words fit. Although given the profession description I think the Runemaster has to trace the rune while saying the 'command word'.
on "rune paper or some similar fragile organic material" (such as... his own clothes!).
That is not my interpretation really as I would hate to wear clothes as fragile as paper!
Anyway clothes are armor class 1-4 so they are armor not items such as rods, wands, staffs that are charged as such.
But I think if you want to go this route clothing such as a scarf/stole could be classed as rune paper equivalent and also gloves as a ring equivalent.
Heck, the mere existence of this spell makes pretty much obsolete EVERY rune paper with an offensive spell inscribed, as such an operation requires the casting of a Rune x spell, whose level far exceeds the level of the offensive spell, whilst this sigil doesn't require it. Its mere existence. Any one able to acquire a rune paper with it on it would, especially the chargeable version.
See? Broken as hell. ;D
Well that is probably the intention of introducing Runemasters... they make everyone else's runes obsolete in comparison. It's up to the GM to place them correctly, if at all. Also consider that if your talking armies vs armies then it is feasible that opposing armies have their own Runemasters thus you have natural balance anyway.
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Also consider that if your talking armies vs armies then it is feasible that opposing armies have their own Runemasters thus you have natural balance anyway.
After some time, yes, the way after some time all powerful enough countries have nuclear weapons. But it has to start at a given time, meaning the first countries in which the spell lists were created / found / developed would at first conquer all their neighbours.
The "natural balance" argument is an excellent one, but it detracts from any "stuff is powerful" discussion as even the "invisible flying fireball-tossing mage" would get balanced over time (with people developing counter-measures, and it becoming the de facto standard military unit). Heck, with it in mind, even a nuke-class level one spell would be naturally get balanced over time so would you just say that such a spell wouldn't be broken?
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Also consider that if your talking armies vs armies then it is feasible that opposing armies have their own Runemasters thus you have natural balance anyway.
After some time, yes, the way after some time all powerful enough countries have nuclear weapons. But it has to start at a given time, meaning the first countries in which the spell lists were created / found / developed would at first conquer all their neighbours.
The "natural balance" argument is an excellent one, but it detracts from any "stuff is powerful" discussion as even the "invisible flying fireball-tossing mage" would get balanced over time (with people developing counter-measures, and it becoming the de facto standard military unit). Heck, with it in mind, even a nuke-class level one spell would be naturally get balanced over time so would you just say that such a spell wouldn't be broken?
I agree they are powerful for sure as I think they were meant to be, and they would break a lot of games with your examples of unrelenting spell casting.
I think this raises a consideration to balance excess magic power in another way by imposing an environmental limit on magic power used over a given time.
Once the limit is reached (say for example equivalent 500 PP/500 sq.ft./day) then the essence flows must recover and no further spells or magic items can be cast in that area for that day.
This could be a viable way of capping too much magic power being unleashed on a game, but would need work as to how it exactly affects magic items.
Another possible way of balancing Runemasters would be to require them to use a special ink that is rare and expensive, and dangerous to handle. In this way you could then limit the number of sigils out there.
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I think we need to change our credo.
#0) Protect your Healer
#1) Kill the Healer Runemaster first
#2) Parry Parry Parry
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I think this raises a consideration to balance excess magic power in another way by imposing an environmental limit on magic power used over a given time.
Once the limit is reached (say for example equivalent 500 PP/500 sq.ft./day) then the essence flows must recover and no further spells or magic items can be cast in that area for that day.
This could be a viable way of capping too much magic power being unleashed on a game, but would need work as to how it exactly affects magic items.
Another possible way of balancing Runemasters would be to require them to use a special ink that is rare and expensive, and dangerous to handle. In this way you could then limit the number of sigils out there.
I typically just say "no" when something requires rewriting game rules to accommodate it. It's a ton easier. :D
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Let's take a level 10 Runemaster, which is not that high.
First, with the spell itself, said Runemaster affects an area of 100'R (!) and inflicts to opponents in hit points damage twice the amount they missed their RR. Miss it by 20, which isn't that much, and it's a whooping 40 hit point damage!
Starting level 11 however, a Runemaster starts to become a true heavy artillery mob cleaner. Why? First, he inflicts thrice the amount his opponents missed their RR (in an area of 110'R)!
Olf,
You talk about the caster becoming a true heavy artillery mob cleaner, but I'm not sure thats really the case.
The spell has no range on it. So its PBAE and the caster is in the very middle of the explosion, right?
The spell will effect everyone in the area of effect, including her own party members, right?
I like the class very much, and can see great potential if a caster can drop into the middle of a battlefield, pop it and port back out, but I'm not sure this is often the case.
And while some mobs might fail their RR by 20 pts, if the mobs are the same level as the caster failure is on average much lower. Fireballs will probably do about the same, you can shoot a fireball at a range.
Please correct me if I am not understanding the rules.
Thanks,
Mal
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And while some mobs might fail their RR by 20 pts, if the mobs are the same level as the caster failure is on average much lower. Fireballs will probably do about the same, you can shoot a fireball at a range.
A Fireball has an area of effect of 10'R whereas a Sigil of Pain has an area of effect of 10'R per level. A Fireball is blocked by obstacles (walls, physical barriers, etc.) whereas a Sigil of Pain's effect is not. Casting a Fireball costs PP, casting the 'spell' enruned by a Sigil of Pain does not since it's just as reading a rune; sure, having the Fireball on a rune paper would have the same effect but "Fireball" is a level 8 spell, requiring a Runemaster to be at least level 16 to enruned it and at least level 20 to embed it as a chargeable rune whereas a Sigil of Pain may be cast starting from level 9.
Sure, it doesn't give a Runemaster complete invincibility, as he'd still be vulnerable to projectiles, mostly, but he's a Runemaster, an Essence spell caster. A Solid Barrier (from the very powerful, but not enough to be broken, "Barriers" Closed Essence spell list in the SUC) is a level 9 spell, completely protecting the Runemaster from physical, solid projectiles. Yes, he's still vulnerable to spells, gases, liquids, etc. but, heh, if your mobs have many spellcasters whilst all being of the level of the Runemaster, I think we may disagree on the definition of "mob"! ;)
Again, he's a Runemaster, so very likely to have, you know, a great collection of Runes with many, many, miscellaneous and different spells, especially to counter his weakness.
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A Fireball is blocked by obstacles (walls, physical barriers, etc.) whereas a Sigil of Pain's effect is not.
I don't agree with this part of your reading. Sigil of Pain (and the other Sigils) does not explicitly state the spell is blocked by obstacles, but neither does Fireball. My presumption would be that spells are blocked by obstacles unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you have to read between the lines to reach a conclusion that makes something super powerful, it's probably not a correct reading.
But for the record I do agree with your reading that the caster, despite being at the center of the area of effect, is not affected. Otherwise that's sufficiently important that it would have to be noted (and make the spell pretty worthless to boot).
One interesting factor here is that, if you do manage to kill the runemaster, you get all the remaining prepared rune papers. So it may be hard, but it's also rewarding....
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I don't agree with this part of your reading. Sigil of Pain (and the other Sigils) does not explicitly state the spell is blocked by obstacles, but neither does Fireball. My presumption would be that spells are blocked by obstacles unless explicitly noted otherwise.
Fair enough. For my part, I consider the physical aspect of the spell manifestation, with spells not being blocked by obstacles unless they have a physical manifestation (such as a fireball, icebolt and the like), because magic is not blocked by magic, allowing people to cast detection spells, for instance, through obstacles. How could one detect presences in a closed room, for instance, if magic thus spells were blocked by obstacles? Such spells aren't "explicitly noted as not being blocked by obstacles" after all. Spells with physical manifestations are different, though, with the physical manifestation being blocked by obstacles (so the fire of a fireball) though not the magical energy of the spell itself (so someone may detect that a spell was cast on the other side of the wall).
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A Fireball is blocked by obstacles (walls, physical barriers, etc.) whereas a Sigil of Pain's effect is not.
I don't agree with this part of your reading. Sigil of Pain (and the other Sigils) does not explicitly state the spell is blocked by obstacles, but neither does Fireball. My presumption would be that spells are blocked by obstacles unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you have to read between the lines to reach a conclusion that makes something super powerful, it's probably not a correct reading.
But for the record I do agree with your reading that the caster, despite being at the center of the area of effect, is not affected. Otherwise that's sufficiently important that it would have to be noted (and make the spell pretty worthless to boot).
One interesting factor here is that, if you do manage to kill the runemaster, you get all the remaining prepared rune papers. So it may be hard, but it's also rewarding....
Sorry for the Necro, but I DO NOT agree that the reader is immune to the effects of the spell. Nowhere does it say that or imply it. I think these are clearly riffs on the D&D Symbol spells, which were designed as traps rather than as something you used then and there.
I mean, maybe the author wanted a super aoe spell effect, but clearly that is broken and doesn't line up with existing powers. I think a trap that blasts the reader and all their nearby allies makes more sense.
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They'd be pretty lousy traps, considering you need to make a successful Runes maneuver to activate them. Compare the spell description of the Sigils to the spell description of the Sign spells on the open essence list Rune Mastery in Spell Law. Signs are traps. Sigils are Runes that are simply limited to specific effects instead of embedding other spells.
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However, I think you are remembering RMC-III Magus pg. 15:
"NOTE: Because of the difficulty of playing a Magus and the potential power inherent in this profession, GMs and players should carefully confer before starting a character with this profession."
I remember the magus. very powerful. Well written, but very powerful. The Runemaster was also very powerful in it's own right. I want something like the diabolist from the Palladium RPG. While the magus and runemaster professions could do a diabolist, they could do the diabolist better.
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The Runemaster was also very powerful in it's own right. I want something like the diabolist from the Palladium RPG.
Though, mayhap, the diabolist may be an interesting profession in its (as in, you know, the possessive adjective rather than the contraction of a pronoun and a laincursed verb whose presence here makes no sense) own right, not many people, especially nowadays, actually know anything about the Palladium RPG (Palladium is probably more known for RIFTS)… Besides, the RM system and the Palladium system, though level-based, are IMO too different to be accurately compared.
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The Runemaster was also very powerful in it's own right. I want something like the diabolist from the Palladium RPG.
Though, mayhap, the diabolist may be an interesting profession in its (as in, you know, the possessive adjective rather than the contraction of a pronoun and a laincursed verb whose presence here makes no sense) own right, not many people, especially nowadays, actually know anything about the Palladium RPG (Palladium is probably more known for RIFTS)… Besides, the RM system and the Palladium system, though level-based, are IMO too different to be accurately compared.
Yes, they are.