Topic: HARP Combat: I messed up

[trechriron]

So, a quick background...

I had a group last year. We started searching for "our" system and we kicked the tires on HARP (among many others...). I really liked a lot of things about it. Character creation, the magic customization, the single roll combat. It played fast, and had enough details to scratch that itch for me.

My players hated it. It was just too deadly (too much stun, PCs went down too fast). In a previous post I mentioned it was "too swingy", I misspoke. That was not the issue. The issue was it's "deadliness".

On another forum, the former author mentioned something about the math being wrong on the combat tables. That the inherent DB bonus was off and made combat deadlier than it should be. The way to "fix" it, was to up the PC's DB bonus. For a time, I've been thinking (in the back of my mind) this was an issue and despite how nifty I thought HARP was, felt is was flawed.

Fast forward to NOV 2014, where in a pure fluke, I decide to checkout RMU beta. Which I'm digging. And I remember that ICE makes HARP, and revised it, and that I really liked it, but my players didn't. And I think "these people were a tad sensitive, I like combat to be severe, it shouldn't be easy. It also shouldn't kill the PCs every time it comes up." So I re-read all those threads, to get the "issue" clear in mind. I download my updated HARP books, and take another gander, and after reading combat, the obvious problem leaps forth and beheads me with a 120+ strike.

We never used Parry. Like ever. It never came up. So I realize, if each PC just moved 10% from OB to DB every round, that would shore up the "deadliness". If you stand there like a dolt, you get smacked, and if you swing and duck and move, you stand up longer. It's like so obvious I LOL'd when I read it (and Gibbs slapped myself).

I feel like a jerk-a-moron-a-saurus.

So, I'm peeling through my HARP stuff again with an eye on gaining expertise, running it, and enjoying the game I knew was splendid but was not smart enough to slow down and actually read thoroughly.

Consider this my official apology with a side of "duh" for good measure.

[markc]

Parry is very important in both RM(any) and HARP. As you said above it is key to combat, survival and the basic play-ability of the game. It also adds a lot of depth to the game that other games try to simulate with various rules.
MDC

[dagorhir]

Parrying is indeed very important and even core to the combat system. But, players never parry even when I tell them they should. They still never it. Some of my players are experienced RM players.

It's the odd thing in both my RM and Harp games that players seen to have a problem with. 

[Marrethiel]

As a player I always half parry unless my oponent is stunned, quite wounded or surprised.

Always!

I have seen posters that say they don't, but to me that is the GM modifying things to keep players alive. For example, our GM always rolls in the open and so do I when I GM.

[Thom @ ICE]

All kinds of schools of thought here....
No Parry - You deliver a lot more major crits and do some serious damage to your foe - you also suffer a lot more major crits and can end up spending extra time doing character creation....  Definitely a good option if you have more attacks than your opposition or want to end the battle quickly - before backups arrive.


Half Parry - Some major crits, and some weak attacks... generally considered a good way to get a feel for your opponent's strengths/weaknesses when evenly matched.


Nearly Full Parry - Few major crits delivered or received...  Excellent option when facing an overly powerful foe and hoping for your allies to show up.

[Marrethiel]

Nearly Full Parry - Few major crits delivered or received...  Excellent option when facing an overly powerful foe and hoping for your allies to show up.

That and for the first round against a PC class, you just don't know how tough they are!

[Thom @ ICE]

That's a personal decision.... if there are many of you attacking during that same round, go full out and hope to land some major crits.  If you are alone, then full parry and pray...

[Marrethiel]

That's a personal decision.... if there are many of you attacking during that same round, go full out and hope to land some major crits.  If you are alone, then full parry and pray...

My character I'm playing now is fully paranoid and has layers and layers of defensive magic items and rituals. A result of decades of RM gaming.

[Cory Magel]

This isn't an uncommon mistake.  RM was designed originally, I believe, with the assumption that you would parry (and I'm sure carried over to HARP as a result).  I suspect it's one of the reasons people think it's so deadly... which I admit it is more so that other system, but not as much as it should be.

That said... my group often has a "The best defense is a good offense" outlook.  There was a mission we once went on that was supposed to be a stealth mission and, when things started to unravel just slightly, we went "F' it.  We're going out the front doors.  Get ready for a fight."

[RandalThor]

This isn't an uncommon mistake.  RM was designed originally, I believe, with the assumption that you would parry (and I'm sure carried over to HARP as a result).  I suspect it's one of the reasons people think it's so deadly... which I admit it is more so that other system, but not as much as it should be.

Actually, along with Shadowrun, my friends and I determined that RM is deadlier than RL - and we parried, fought with stealth and tactics, etc... Every combat ended up with death, not the "I stab the orc to finish it off, once it's down" type of death (which definitely makes all RPGs deadlier than RL), but the "hit/crit = death on an attack" type. Stunning and gaining negative modifiers always seems to result in that one attack getting a ridiculously high result, with an "E" crit - often with "round the clock again" crits, as well. And it seemed that once you got na "E" crit, unless you rolled less than 15 or so, your target was killed, though maybe it took a few rounds to complete.

[Witchking20k]

I came to RM from d6 system where there was a dodge roll......so, for me parrying was always part of the game.  When I tried D&D and there was no parrying option I was very confused...."How do you protect yourself?".

And as a note- if you ever want to teach PCs to parry, have their foes do it.  LOL. 

[Cory Magel]

And as a note- if you ever want to teach PCs to parry, have their foes do it.  LOL. 

That's our test for if a House Rule is really something that should be done: "Do you really want your foes to be able to do this to you?"

[markc]

For NPCS and monsters in my game it really depends on their outlook and motivations as to how much OB they shift into DB. So it is my (a GM) call as to how much they shift and when.
MDC 

[Zhaleskra]

I think this is why people declare "death spiral" games to deadly: they are unaware of their options to alleviate the spiral.

[Alwyn]

In my years of experience running RM, MERP, and HARP, I tried to emphasize the usefulness of parrying to my various players.  Some took to it, some didn't.  Those that didn't use it died more quickly.  Even the those playing mages grasped the idea of using parry in order to survive.   Darwinism at its finest!   

[Marrethiel]

"round the clock again" crits,

Which is why we don't use this house rule. We do wrap for hit points as it is easier than the official rule.
EDIT: do you use the same dice roll on both crits?

[GrumpyOldFart]

In my years of experience running RM, MERP, and HARP, I tried to emphasize the usefulness of parrying to my various players.  Some took to it, some didn't.  Those that didn't use it died more quickly.  Even the those playing mages grasped the idea of using parry in order to survive.   Darwinism at its finest!   

In my years in the SCA a recurring refrain I heard at fighter practice, from old fighters teaching new ones, was that "If you don't learn to dodge AND shield block AND parry, and learn to be pretty good at all 3, it probably won't ever matter how good your offense is. You're meat on the table."

All of my players are old SCAers (even the young ones, they were born into it), so pretty much all I have to do is say something along the lines of, "How long do you think you could survive Bordermarch Melees without having to go 'full turtle' even once?" They get the message. For most of them, the answer is "less than 30 seconds."

[Alwyn]

In my years of experience running RM, MERP, and HARP, I tried to emphasize the usefulness of parrying to my various players.  Some took to it, some didn't.  Those that didn't use it died more quickly.  Even the those playing mages grasped the idea of using parry in order to survive.   Darwinism at its finest!   

In my years in the SCA a recurring refrain I heard at fighter practice, from old fighters teaching new ones, was that "If you don't learn to dodge AND shield block AND parry, and learn to be pretty good at all 3, it probably won't ever matter how good your offense is. You're meat on the table."

All of my players are old SCAers (even the young ones, they were born into it), so pretty much all I have to do is say something along the lines of, "How long do you think you could survive Bordermarch Melees without having to go 'full turtle' even once?" They get the message. For most of them, the answer is "less than 30 seconds."

SCA, that brings back some memories (some painful).  I remember getting some cracked ribs back in the early eighties from keeping my shield too high on a block from a very tall combatant.  He came in under my shield and nailed me good.

[John @ ICE]

Good comments here and an interesting observation.  I equally had few Players that opted to parry, though they seemed to load up on defensives in other ways...perhaps because I lightly imposed the encumbrance rules (what a pain to track!). NPCs never parried...unless they were high level and the GM wanted them to survive...