Topic: Elemental Summoning lists

[Dreven1]

Hi all!

I am working on streamlining the Elemental Summons, Undead Creation/Summons and the Daemon Summoning lists.

Here is what I currently have:

“Summoning Entity/Elemental/Undead” –

1)   With over-casting available (and as easy as it is), I think that a 3rd level character being able to get a 5th level creature is pretty nice. However, having said that – there is the “Master” spell that allows the entity to be controlled; without concentration AND it is permanent.
2)   This means, with the original rules, that a caster can “potentially” at 3rd level, spend 9+ rounds summoning and casting and mastering and getting three level 5 entities under their control.
3)   This is too much for the power of my campaign, so I have aligned it with the Necromancy list and how they handle undead.

“Interpretation of the Entity/Elemental Mastered Spells” –

1)   With any Entity/Elementals controlled - Any caster can only have 1 level of Entity/Elemental per level of caster
a.   A 5th level caster can have one level 5 creature “Mastered” at any one point in time.
b.   A 10th level caster can have a level 10 creature OR two level 5 creatures, or ten level 1 creatures “Mastered” at any one point in time.
c.   A 15th level caster can have a level 15 creature, or have a level 5 creature AND a level 10 creature, or have ten level 1 creatures, OR three level 5 creatures “Mastered” at any one point in time.
d. Caster must still consume time in combat to direct/order them to do something.

“Interpretation of the Entity/Elemental Control Spells” –

1)   With any Entity/Elemental list the max level of the Entity/Elementals “Controlled” should not exceed the levels of the casters level.
a.   A 1st level caster cannot summon and “control” a 3rd level Entity/Elemental
b.   A 3rd level caster can summon and “control” a level 3 Entity/Elemental but cannot overcast the control Entity/Elemental II (which is a 10th level Entity/Elemental)
c.   A 5th level caster can not summon and “control” a level 10 Entity/Elemental
d.   A 8th level caster can summon and “control” a level 8 Entity/Elemental but cannot overcast the control Entity/Elemental III (which is a 15th level creature)
e.   A 13th level caster can summon and “control” a level 13 Entity/Elemental but cannot overcast the control Entity/Elemental IV (which is a 20th level creature)
f.   It would take a 15th level summoning caster to control a level 15 creature.

1)   Any Undead/Entity/Elemental will get a RR vs. being controlled or mastered. This rule overrides the flat chance given in the book.

This will help balance the aspect of a 5th level caster being able to fire off a control spell (and all they have to do is make the overcast roll) to control a level 15 or 20 creature.  This rule has little impact on the creator of the Entity/Elemental spell because it takes 2 rounds for the creature to form.  That is 2 free shots to control a creature for the “control” spell so a 3rd level caster has a good chance to “control’ a 3rd level Entity/Elemental.

I checked the charts on the “Control Entity” line of spells.  These lists are highly irregular.  I have made these rules that will help balance out the lists without destroying any development that a character has already spent in the lists. Also, I wanted to get this out of the way before it impacted anyone too greatly.

What do other players/DM's think? Does this seem fair and balanced? I saw some of the elementals in "Fire and Ice" and they get multiple attacks (abet low) and have huge DB's for their levels.  I think this balances out nicely but wanted to get others opinions on how they handle summoning and controlling of undead/elementals/daemons.

Thanks and happy sojourns!
 

[Arioch]

The Elemental Summons list in F&I says that a character may only have as many levels of mastered creatures as his own level.
So a 3rd level Elementalist cannot master a 5th level elemental.

Evil Essence users can "master" up to 2 entities, with no level restriction, if they manage to cast the appropriate spell (but Entity Mastery I is a 6th level istant spell, so they'll have to pass a -40 casting maneuver. Not impossible, but risky)

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Does this seem fair and balanced?

Talking from a RM2's POV since I don't know which version(s)/rules you're using but, it sounds absolutely unfair and ludicrously unbalanced, of course. Let's take the example of the Evil Magician's list, "Dark Summons".

0) You're talking about "level 5" entities, which are Type II demons (lvl 3-5), and a level 5 character, so I'll go with that,
1) First, PC has to summon the creature, thus casting Lesser demonic gate, a level 5 spell. Probability to get a Type II is 30%, with 10% of summoning a Type III,
2) Now, he has to master it, thus overcasting Demon mastery II, a level 9 spell. It's a +4 level overcast (35% ESF) and standard mastery failure is 5xType = 10%. For an ESF failure of an attack/aggressive spell, 3xESF is added to the fumble roll, meaning +105, giving 50% of frying himself for hours to killing himself. 35%! 1 out of 3!!!
3) That is, if he's lucky. After all, he has 10% of summoning a Type III, which can only be controlled by the level 10 spell, Control demon III, , which is a +5 ESF, which gives 40% ESF with +120 to the fumble roll!
4) Of course, if the caster is able to go past the ESF, he still has the basic 10% spell failure (to master a Type II) or 6% (to master a Type III).

Let's count all that.
1) Successfully casting Lesser demonic gate: 98%,
2.1) Getting a type I: x60% -> 58.8%,
2.2) Mastering the type I (20% ESF + 5% basic failure): x80% x95% = 44.69%
3.1) Getting a type II: + x30% -> +29.4%,
3.2) Mastering the type I (35% ESF + 10% basic failure): x65% x90% = +17.2%
4.1) Getting a type III: + x10% -> +9.8%,
4.2) Controlling the type I (40% ESF + 6% basic failure): x60% x94% = +5.53%

Total chance of success: ~62% (61.887 for nitpicking people). And that with ~45% of getting a type I (level 1-2 demon) and ~5.5% of merely controlling a type III. Not to mention the chance of frying himself (ESF probability failure, not mrely fail and get either a critical or even a Quest; 58.8 x 0.2 + 29.4 x 0.35 + 9.8 x .4 = ~26%, over 1 out of 4!!!).
It's already so laincursed difficult and dangerous that I'm not sure many people tried and survived to tell the story and you want to make it even less worthwhile to even try?

2)   This means, with the original rules, that a caster can “potentially” at 3rd level, spend 9+ rounds summoning and casting and mastering and getting three level 5 entities under their control.

Probably to get away with three demons at all is 23.7%, probabilty to master three type II is 0.5% so the "potential" is fairly low. Oh, and probability of frying yourself (ESF probability failure) is ~60%. So, yeah. Want to try? Be my guest and prepare yourself for rolling a new character.
One should better just go out and hire a mercenary.

[Dreven1]

Excellent points guys! I wish I could give you OIC points!  Here is the second issue I have with F&I elemental summoning.  Look at the difference in stats from a Necromancy creation of undead, deamon and elementals (Types I through VI).  This is where the imbalance comes in with summoning a level 1 Air Whispling vs. level 1 undead.  You will see the statistics are horridly inconsistent. I have used the Undead creation with great success.  A level 3 necromancer can make a 3rd level Undead minion (Permanent) or three 1st levels.  If you do that same thing with a 3rd level Elementalist (say Air) the Whipslings rock! (especially with 80 DB).

Im trying to come up with a way to have an undead, elemental or deamon minion summoned and controlled and the higher level you are the more bonuses you get for it's purpose. You want a level 3 with more DB? or more attack? or higher AT, or more carrying capacity? These are the options I am thinking about putting in a chart.  That way, a level 3 Elementalist wont just be able to walk all over a level 3 Necromancer or a level 3 deamon summoner.

[gog]

Here is the second issue I have with F&I elemental summoning.  Look at the difference in stats from a Necromancy creation of undead, deamon and elementals (Types I through VI).

That way, a level 3 Elementalist wont just be able to walk all over a level 3 Necromancer or a level 3 deamon summoner.

But the three given above are different types of creature entirely, so does there need to be parity between them. Undead are created using Channelling (if memory serves); while the other two are summoned from other planes of reality.

[jdale]

I suspect undead also have disadvantages in that they are susceptible to sunlight and clerics and paladins have spells that target them. Fewer foes have spells to target elementals.

Which edition are you looking at? It's hard to look at the existing spells and stats without knowing that.

While I can understand the temptation to simply match all the spells across the three types, ultimately it kind of makes all three types the same. That doesn't necessarily improve the game. One might be easier to make minions while another might make tougher minions, that might create a balance issue when you look at those spells in isolation for low-level characters who haven't gotten the full suite of spells yet, but in the bigger picture it could still work.