Topic: Illusion question for RM -- any version

[providence13]

Sorry..
I got your point about illusions are real, in a sense.
When I saw the initial "illusionist" term, I thought that was pretty generic did'nt know it was specific to the Essence Illusionist  profession.

Although Ment Co does have a good bit about illusions.
"If he is careful, very light and very lucky(?), the feel aspect may last long enough for him to cross the bridge. If a companion.. overwhelmed the feel aspect of the bridge (unlucky), he would ...plumit to his death."
Sure sounds like you could feel the feel aspect of the warmth from the fire. You could also overwhelm the feel aspect... by jumping in fire perhaps... and what is the lucky part?
If it isn't belief/RR, is it just chance?

I'll take my illusionary ball and go home.

[Marc R]

I believe the luck issue relates to making maneuvers to cross the phantasm bridge without accidentally knocking it too hard. . .if you're not lucky, stumble and "kick" the bridge, you pop the feel and fall.

[markc]

 I think it can be seen why in my game I require my Illusionist to have many skills to simulate the knowledge of how the world works to make an ideal real illusion. Or to say to make an illusion that is good enough to fool people.
 And I think the above discussion has just about covered every problem I have had with players and illusions.

MDC

[dutch206]

It would not even generate light unless the Illusionist used Light Control (which is NOT one of the features that a Phantasm supports, it is a completely separate spell).

OK, that is totally messed up.  It would look like a campfire to someone with darkvision?  That would be a complete brain fry.

[pastaav]

The thing that is funny in these discussions is that we quite clearly see why people are having problems with the essence illusions.

If we take a spell like a fire ball it clearly generate an effect that is fantasy-like and can not be duplicated IRL. On the other hand the fire ball after it has been created by the magic follows basic laws of science and you need to work pretty hard to run into in game plausibility problems with the spell. It is very destructive but the energy it provides is limited.

Feel illusions that are heated but does not radiate heat to the environment or that does feel warm, but does not loose any heat from transmitting it to other objects are on the other hand scientifically impossible. You either need unlimited energy or to break basic science laws.

An interpretation of a spell that require the effects of the spell to break the rules of thermodynamics is bound to be an endless source of "wait while I figure out some technobabble reasons why you can't" because the laws of thermodynamics are considered essential just because they prevent perpetuum mobiles that are claimed to work just by such inconsistencies.

I keep the position that essence Illusions as written in RM are easy to handle and does not give any serious rule headaches. It is when people start to give extra features to the spells like almost allow them to be heated but not in scientific plausible way that things get messy. In just about every case when these additions are suggested there are always references to "problematic situations" when the illusion else would be discovered. These explanations almost always make me think the poster really wants Mentalism Companion based mental illusions but that creates real objects, they want to combine the best aspects of both types of illusions without keeping any of inherent limitations in both types....

[Marc R]

I'm generally with you on these kinds of issues, but when you start using "Plausible" and "Magic" in the same sentance, I get squeemish.

The stone wall spell. . . .how much energy to create 100 cubic feet of stone? Plenty enough to crack a planet in half if you could create it as energy rather than matter.

Once matter creation is on the table I think positing conservation as a limiting factor in spell logic seems like a strange angle to take.

The feel aspect of the spells are intended to make the phantasm feel realistic. . .there are specific limitations in place, like it cannot emit light, and it can only inflict martial arts damage. This means a fire or stove cannot be hot enough to burn without some other effect worked on it.

There's nothing, anywhere in the books to suggest that phantasms can be detected because they are always room temperature. . .if that were the case, then I'd think in the lengthy essays in the various spell laws and companions would have addressed that simple and obvious way to detect them, rather than giving lengthy detail on all sorts of other various ways to do so. .

Allowing a feel effect to be warm or cool, but not so much as to cause damage, seems to fit with the logic of making an object feel realistic. . .which is the entire point of the spell. Why the ability to create a surface of force seems plausable and scientific, while allowing that plane of force to be warm or cold to the touch is unrealistic and fantastic seems strange to me.

You shouldn't be able to tell that a phantasm is fake just by touching it and noticing it's cool when it should be warm, or vice versa. . .

I could see that being a result of a failed spell artistry roll if you limit illusionists that way. . .but on the other hand, if a master illusionist creates a phantasm of a person with great rolls and lots of lavished attention. . .it should feel right. . .i.e. be warm to the touch, soft skin, hard nails and teeth, hair that feels like hair, a pulse, breathing, the whole nine yards.

[pastaav]

The stone wall spell. . . .how much energy to create 100 cubic feet of stone? Plenty enough to crack a planet in half if you could create it as energy rather than matter.

So...should we thus deduct that the spell works in such way and have this amouth of energy or is not much better to simply say that it does teleport the matter from the surroundings?

BTW the mirror comparison with my previous argument in this case would be that once the spell has created the stone wall it follows the normal laws of science and does not require an unlimited power source or that we break any scientific laws.

There's nothing, anywhere in the books to suggest that phantasms can be detected because they are always room temperature. . .if that were the case, then I'd think in the lengthy essays in the various spell laws and companions would have addressed that simple and obvious way to detect them, rather than giving lengthy detail on all sorts of other various ways to do so.

The reverse of that is the question why there is not any essays about how phantasm can be used to make perpetuum mobiles...any energy difference is enough to work science IRL.

To my knowledge there is not one single suggestion in the books about what degree of heating that is acceptable for an illusion. Isn't it strange that they in all books missed to discuss this rather essential fact if feels can be heated? Why does no examples in the book mention the creation of heated surfaces if the spells are intended to be used like this?

Wouldn't it sound much more plausible that the absence of such discussion is because there is no basis at all for illusions to be heated besides your desire to increase the usefulness of illusions beyond what it supported by the text in the books?

Allowing a feel effect to be warm or cool, but not so much as to cause damage, seems to fit with the logic of making an object feel realistic. . .which is the entire point of the spell. Why the ability to create a surface of force seems plausable and scientific, while allowing that plane of force to be warm or cold to the touch is unrealistic and fantastic seems strange to me.

The rules does explicitly explain the limitations of such surfaces. The text in game master law is especially good. The laws of thermodynamics are very good reasons why heated object are problematic while illusionary objects that break if stressed is not any problem.

You shouldn't be able to tell that a phantasm is fake just by touching it and noticing it's cool when it should be warm, or vice versa. . .

More like there should be just so much things that can be done with illusions on its own...if you want it to feel warm and alive then you can use a magic item that heat the illusion or work with a live animal or person at the center of illusion to make it feel realistic. There are plenty of spells that are poorly worded so they can be abused to do weird stuff...no reason to add such wordings to the illusion spells.

[Marc R]

OK, lets run this in order.

When the spell says "Creates" it means creates, by the very logic that what the spell says, it does. The barriers list requires 1 cu foot of stone to be within 50' of the caster to CREATE 100 cu feet of stone wall, as it doesn't say so, the 1 cu foot of stone is not consumed, so it's only used as a template of kind or some such. If the spell said "Assemble" or "Teleports in" and/or required 100 cu feet of stone be near the caster, and/or said it actually removed or moved any stone, we might be talking something else, but indeed, it says "Creates".

There's a whole list called "Creations" which can also create enough mass to crack a planet. . .and I'd assume that with the list titled "creations" and the spells stating it creates the matter in question that it's actually. . .creating matter.

Considering the latter half of your statement is saying stick to what the book says, I'll say you cannot reasonably argue that "create" means something other than "create". So we have spells that as is, create matter in large enough scales that converted to energy would be vast amounts of energy. . . .

I agree with the logic that after a spell's effect is done and an object is created, it responds to the laws of physics. . you can smash a wall to bits and cart it off, it cannot be dispelled.

I dissagree with your application to this instance, as a phantasm is an active, ongoing effect. i.e. it's not the creation of a lump of stone that is normal, inert matter from that point on, it's creating and sustaining an ongoing magical energy construct. i.e. it's ongoing magic, which can and will conflict with some physical laws. Among them being, how can something with no mass support the weight of a person? A feel phantasm bridge can support weight. . .Phantasms are not fragile and break when stressed, they break when struck. . . you can walk on them for instance as long as you tred lightly.

In the notes for Phantasms, you see:

Note: The sense aspects of an Illusion, Mirage or Phantasm are actually created – no RR to “disbelieve” – and detecting that it is an illusion can normally only be accomplished through the use of spells or through the use of a conflicting sense. Even after the illusion is detected, it still exists (but the detector knows that it is not real).

Red stress is mine. . ."conflicting sense" is important. If you make a phantasm with everything but a feel, it can be detected by touching it, your hand passes through it, it's fake. . .similarly if it doesn't have taste and you lick it, you can detect it has no taste, etc etc. . . .but a "conflicting sense" is required. . .i.e. you need to use a sense not applied to the phantasm. . .if it has all five senses activated, the only way to detect it is either by using magic or attacking it to break the feel componant.

so, as the book says if it has a feel mirage, then in all ways it "Feels" right, just like in all ways the object will look right with the illusion part, smell right with the smell mirage, taste right with the taste mirage, and sound right with the sound mirage. . .part of feeling right is texture, firmness, rigidity, and temperature.

It would seem that:

a) an extra sense can be added (the corresponding Mirage spell must be known);

You must know the light molding list "Light mirage" spell, but if you do, it can be melded in, just as all the feel/taste/smell mirage spells can be, and just as the sound mirage off of sound molding can be, or the various presence and power mirages can be melded into it.

There are specific provisos about damage always being martial arts, so the ruling, as Rasyr said earlier, about a phantasm of a hot stove effectively striking you would be a giveaway when it breaks your finger rather than burning it, but there's no reason why a non damaging level of heat is contra indicated anywhere here.

The way to detect an illusion is via a contrary sense, i.e. one not included by the caster. . .or a detect spell. . .moderate temperatures are part of touch, so I see no reason why they should be excluded from feel, which "makes an object or surface feel differently than what it is" which is open ended enough to cover warm and cool. There is nothing about the text indicates that there's anything about touch that cannot be duplicated, other than the specific damage effects proviso/limitation.

I suspect you have a house rule in effect that isn't in the books. . .low level spells can and do manipulate what to physics would be massive amounts of energy, it's magic!

Worthy of another thread, but there are plenty of ways to create perpetual energy sources in RM with magic, at least, perpetual until dispelled or broken, so I don't know what

[mocking bird]

Why shouldn't they be room temperatured? If the illusionist is stupid enough to allow a person touch the phantasm it is his problem.

It isn't a problem rather it is the basis for why you have feel components.

Why shouldn't they be room temperatured? If the illusionist is stupid enough to allow a person touch the phantasm it is his problem.

Or if you want to get more bizarre, if you put an illsionary rock in hot water, would it heat up?

Why not? I can't see what is bizarre. [/quote]

That would involve heat transferrence which you seem to be against.  It would seem contradictory if illusions could not heat outside matter yet could themselves be heated.

For physical touch there are special limitations on the illusion that force us to check for breaking feels more often, but heat is something different so I can't see any reason why those special rules would matter. [\quote]

I think it is 5lb.s weight?  From the Ment. Companion IIRC.

Read the spell description again...you are creating an illusion not real tea. If you want your illusionary tea to make the tea blue then you need an illusion that turns blue at the right time. There is nothing that suggest that your illusionary fluid will interact with the environment.

But it does interract with the environment.  Illusions can support minimal weight.  Therefore when the ice melts the water would just float on top.  Likewise if you put a toy boat in illusionary water it would float, or rather it would probaly sit right on top of the water.  The illusionist would have to control the phantasm to allow the boat to sink a little as well as create the ripples.

[pastaav]

When the spell says "Creates" it means creates, by the very logic that what the spell says, it does. The barriers list requires 1 cu foot of stone to be within 50' of the caster to CREATE 100 cu feet of stone wall, as it doesn't say so, the 1 cu foot of stone is not consumed, so it's only used as a template of kind or some such. If the spell said "Assemble" or "Teleports in" and/or required 100 cu feet of stone be near the caster, and/or said it actually removed or moved any stone, we might be talking something else, but indeed, it says "Creates".

I don't get what your problem is...why the heck would it more logical to assume the spell handles massive more energy than any other spell just to prove your point when there are alternate explanations that does not suffer from this? The spell states that it from the viewpoint of the user creates stones and that it needs 1 cu of stone as blueprint. It does very not specify any conditions that contradict that it assembles the stone particles from a large area. We basically has two alternatives here to explain how the spell works. Your idea require the spell to handle as massive energy amount that in no way match what is found in the attack spells of similar level. My idea require nothing special except that the magic system include stuff like long range teleport. Why not chose the explanation that does not cause contradictions? If we need real world explanations then we can refer to quantum teleportation of objects as explanation.

Considering the latter half of your statement is saying stick to what the book says, I'll say you cannot reasonably argue that "create" means something other than "create". So we have spells that as is, create matter in large enough scales that converted to energy would be vast amounts of energy. . . .

I think I have just argued like that a number of times even though you don't like the conclusions... I also maintain that this stance is more logical since this removed unnecessary contradictions about different energy level in different spells.

I dissagree with your application to this instance, as a phantasm is an active, ongoing effect. i.e. it's not the creation of a lump of stone that is normal, inert matter from that point on, it's creating and sustaining an ongoing magical energy construct. i.e. it's ongoing magic, which can and will conflict with some physical laws. Among them being, how can something with no mass support the weight of a person?

Simple answer...if it can't support anything without mass then the magic will make the illusion have some mass when it support the weight of an object. Why assume that it has no mass when it support weight...is it just to "prove" that I am wrong about how the book handle illusions?

A feel phantasm bridge can support weight. . .Phantasms are not fragile and break when stressed, they break when struck. . . you can walk on them for instance as long as you tred lightly.

That totally contradicts facts...Gamemaster Law specify that 5 pound is the limit. If the walker weights more every extra pound increase the risk for destroying a feel by 1 %. If the phantasm has enough feels you can walk over the bridge if you are swift, but that is very much beside the point.

Red stress is mine. . ."conflicting sense" is important. If you make a phantasm with everything but a feel, it can be detected by touching it, your hand passes through it, it's fake. . .similarly if it doesn't have taste and you lick it, you can detect it has no taste, etc etc. . . .but a "conflicting sense" is required. . .i.e. you need to use a sense not applied to the phantasm. . .if it has all five senses activated, the only way to detect it is either by using magic or attacking it to break the feel componant.

That does not mean that you can make any object and make it believable. A phantasm of an explosion that covers all the five senses will still not do a tiny bit of damage without the strike spell so your analysis does leave large parts out of the picture. The phantasm that cover all senses are convincing, but can not mimc any shining/heated/very cold/etc object in a realistic way.

so, as the book says if it has a feel mirage, then in all ways it "Feels" right, just like in all ways the object will look right with the illusion part, smell right with the smell mirage, taste right with the taste mirage, and sound right with the sound mirage. . .part of feeling right is texture, firmness, rigidity, and temperature.

Why doesn't it say that you can alter the temperature then?

We have already established that the illusionary objects like the hot bath tube that can warm the player but does not radiate heat is problematic and that extra spells are needed for to allow the illusionary lantern to shine out light.

Would the illusionary bath tube look like hot, but not actually send out any heat that can be sensed? Would not that very much reveal the illusion is fake? Where does the "the illusion will be easy to spot unless we extend the capabilities of the illusion spells" really end? The truth is that an object being warm and it radiating heat is very much the same thing.

Why is it so hard to admit that the hot illusion violates elementary science and works like a pandora box for illusions?

With room tempered illusions the illusionsist can not have his pure illusionary babe have sex with the one he is trying to fool. The illusionist can still allow brief touches since it takes some moment for the person to realize just how cold the illusion is. Myself I have natural body temperature that makes me more cold than the average...when I reach average body temperature I do in truth has severe fever. I do think such arguments would work wonders to explain away coldness. The illusionsist can also get a magic item that heat the illusion, or use a live actor as basis of the deception if he want to make it more believable. 

a) an extra sense can be added (the corresponding Mirage spell must be known);

You must know the light molding list "Light mirage" spell, but if you do, it can be melded in, just as all the feel/taste/smell mirage spells can be, and just as the sound mirage off of sound molding can be, or the various presence and power mirages can be melded into it.

That is very much my point: the illusionsist spells all build of assembly of effects from other spell lists into an illusion. Problem for your stance is that the illusionist lack base list, closed lists or open lists that allow him to tinker with temperature. Your "solution" is to give this power for free for the feel spell. My solution is to tell the player to chose his illusions better or get an magic item that allow him to overcome this basic weakness in his available spells.

There are specific provisos about damage always being martial arts, so the ruling, as Rasyr said earlier, about a phantasm of a hot stove effectively striking you would be a giveaway when it breaks your finger rather than burning it, but there's no reason why a non damaging level of heat is contra indicated anywhere here.

Except all those pesky science arguments....

The way to detect an illusion is via a contrary sense, i.e. one not included by the caster. . .or a detect spell. . .moderate temperatures are part of touch, so I see no reason why they should be excluded from feel, which "makes an object or surface feel differently than what it is" which is open ended enough to cover warm and cool. There is nothing about the text indicates that there's anything about touch that cannot be duplicated, other than the specific damage effects proviso/limitation.

Ordinary dead objects also adjust their temperature to room temperature, why is it part of touch to make it feel like the object has a different temperature than what it really has?

I suspect you have a house rule in effect that isn't in the books. . .low level spells can and do manipulate what to physics would be massive amounts of energy, it's magic!

Oh..joy...you claim I am the one that has a house rule when you are the one that want to extend what the feel spell can do beyond what is written.

[pastaav]

Why shouldn't they be room temperatured? If the illusionist is stupid enough to allow a person touch the phantasm it is his problem.

It isn't a problem rather it is the basis for why you have feel components.

Like I have said in other posts...choose a better phantasm that fits the spell you have available, or get assistance to overcome the weakness in the spell lists. 

Or if you want to get more bizarre, if you put an illsionary rock in hot water, would it heat up?

Why not? I can't see what is bizarre.

That would involve heat transferrence which you seem to be against.  It would seem contradictory if illusions could not heat outside matter yet could themselves be heated.

I am very pro heat transfer because that is a fundamental science property. An illusion that has been heated by something can heat other stuff...that is very different from saying that the illusion without heat source can heat other objects.

Read the spell description again...you are creating an illusion not real tea. If you want your illusionary tea to make the tea blue then you need an illusion that turns blue at the right time. There is nothing that suggest that your illusionary fluid will interact with the environment.

But it does interract with the environment.  Illusions can support minimal weight.  Therefore when the ice melts the water would just float on top.  Likewise if you put a toy boat in illusionary water it would float, or rather it would probaly sit right on top of the water.  The illusionist would have to control the phantasm to allow the boat to sink a little as well as create the ripples.

Exactly, It is very explicitly stated that an phantasm require active concentration from the illusion for it to move and thus interact with the environment. If there is a feel on the tea that will allow some weight, but the phantasm is no fluid unless the illusionist actively makes it behave like such so any observer would deduct something was fishy if he saw the ice cube and the water from the ice cube refuse to mix with the illusionary tea.

[Marc R]

Pas, you don't like the energy level of a stone wall being created, so you changed it, that's fine, but any reading of the book that doesn't stretch the fact it reads "created". . .you think that's too much energy, but in the end it's magic. . .perhaps there's a logic not contained in science as to why it's easy to create certain things in certain instances. . .

A visible illusion is undetectable by vision, A feel illusion is undetectable by feel. . .having things be "wrong temperature" would contradict that, as you'd be able to detect a feel mirage by touch.

it states in the right column on page 88 of GM law:

As already noted, the people sensing the effect can probably discern the illusion because of one of their other senses, and the illusion has a limited duration. The feel mirage is the most powerful, but it is a 5th level spell (as a comparison a 2nd level closed essence spell will summon a real creature for the same duration).

That pesky "other" sense again. . . you cannot detect it by feel alone, ergo the way it feels is as perfect as other aspects. . .which would require temperature. . .and mentions that power level issue that bugs you, and refutes it.

A little below that, same page:

note an illusionist can actually create an object by using the 6th level spell (combining all 5 senses). Of course the object is temporary (only 1 minute per level) and is subject to detection by cancelling it's feel mirage; but it is, for all intents and purposes, a real object.

That's a pretty firm statement, a real warm muffin would be warm, a real person would have warm hands, a real ice cube would feel cold. It's magic, it's far more of a stretch of the imagination for me to create a steak on a plate out of nothing, than it is for me to fathom that it also happens to be a warm steak.

As to the "Radiate" issue. . .you're confusing me with another poster above. . .I did make a few "even if you take it further" or "even if one considered it temperature neutral like pas" statements regarding that. . .but as close as I came personally to that was to say that if the fire cannot be so hot as to burn, it can't throw off radiant heat like a bonfire would. . . that's not to say it wouldn't radiate some heat, just that at non combat damaging heat/cold levels, the radiant feeling would be negligible. There is a specific notation that feels on illusions can't cause damage at all, and feels on phantasms always cause strikes if damage is called for.

[Fornitus]

 Interesting how differently these view points are.

 15 years ago we just house ruled all Phantasm attacks roll on the MA Rank 1 table but with the appropriate crit chart used. So a Phantasm of a Fire Bolt will do Heat damage for its Feel attack but with a lower max damage from the Rank 1 maximum.

 Never saw a problem running it this way. We thought the MA Strikes chart was just used to limit the max damage a Phantasm can do, not what form it can take.

 (yes, for us if a Phantasm sword hits it has a low max damage (Rank 1), but still rolls the crit on Slashing)

[markc]

Interesting how differently these view points are.

 15 years ago we just house ruled all Phantasm attacks roll on the MA Rank 1 table but with the appropriate crit chart used. So a Phantasm of a Fire Bolt will do Heat damage for its Feel attack but with a lower max damage from the Rank 1 maximum.

 Never saw a problem running it this way. We thought the MA Strikes chart was just used to limit the max damage a Phantasm can do, not what form it can take.

 (yes, for us if a Phantasm sword hits it has a low max damage (Rank 1), but still rolls the crit on Slashing)

 Yes games evolve as people grow. I know my game had a huge logic leap as I was in college as well as during that time my players also wanted more realism.
MDC

[Marc R]

Contemplating "how hot or how cold"

The table in RMC Spell law for what kind of damage you take in combat terms from being unprotected in extreme temperatures or touching extreme temperature objects effectively defines the range of temperatures that don't qualify as an attack. (You might get hypothermia or heat prostration from extended exposure, but not round by round critical damage)

At/Below 0F (-17C) you start taking A Cold Crits
At/Above 200F (93C) you start taking A Heat Crits

So any temperature between 1 and 199 F would be a non attack scale temperature . . . a 199 F campfire would be a wan, cold one compared to the real thing at 450+ degrees.

I likely would pull that in further to prevent abuses, since 199 is hot enough to put you down in a few minutes unless you're being constantly hydrated and cooled, and a 0 temp vs someone in summer clothes could put them out of action in less than an hour.

Temps in the 30-120 range don't seem to offer much in the way of abuse of the effects as outlined. . . .what exactly would an illusionist do with barely freezing or rather hot phantasms/illlusions of objects that's so game breakingly dangerous?

[mocking bird]

Interesting how differently these view points are.

 15 years ago we just house ruled all Phantasm attacks roll on the MA Rank 1 table but with the appropriate crit chart used. So a Phantasm of a Fire Bolt will do Heat damage for its Feel attack but with a lower max damage from the Rank 1 maximum.

 Never saw a problem running it this way. We thought the MA Strikes chart was just used to limit the max damage a Phantasm can do, not what form it can take.

 (yes, for us if a Phantasm sword hits it has a low max damage (Rank 1), but still rolls the crit on Slashing)

Illusions do do MA/St 1 damage as written in the strike spell.  We were also going to go with the variable crit, still using the MA st chart, depending on the illusion/phantasm itself but alas my illusionist is currently gathering dust - and probably will continue to do so after permanently killing the rest of the party (except one).

[providence13]

Illusions do do MA/St 1 damage as written in the strike spell.  
(yes, for us if a Phantasm sword hits it has a low max damage (Rank 1), but still rolls the crit on Slashing)

I can see how this could make sense in your game.
IMHO, I actually like the fact the OB for a Phantasm attack is your Directed Spell for "Phantasm Attacks". 
  So what if it only does "fist attack" or MA Stike Degree/Rank I (whichever). Each "size" increase doubles that damage! (pg 207 RMFRP)
"Even though the Phantasm's strike is like a fist, the phantasm can seem to be stiking with any weapon attack (eg. sword, Dragon claw, hoof, dagger)"

It's just MA Stike I (for me), but I read it to be doubled as many times as your Phantasm# -1.

 :)But I could be wrong.

[pastaav]

Pas, you don't like the energy level of a stone wall being created, so you changed it, that's fine, but any reading of the book that doesn't stretch the fact it reads "created". . .you think that's too much energy, but in the end it's magic. . .perhaps there's a logic not contained in science as to why it's easy to create certain things in certain instances. . .

It is strange how you twist things all the time...there are no explanation at all about how the spell can create the stone. The wording of the spell implies that from the viewpoint of the user it creates stone out of nothing. How can you then with a straight face say that I have changed anything at all? The user get's a stone wall and the stone just appears out of thin air so of course he would claim he created the stone because he really did it from his point of view. You can most certainly say "it's magic so it does not need to be logical"...but that does not in any way make your explanation of how the spell work more plausible. Why should I agree to your analysis that totally builds of not being able to differ between the caster and the game designer point of view?

A visible illusion is undetectable by vision, A feel illusion is undetectable by feel. . .having things be "wrong temperature" would contradict that, as you'd be able to detect a feel mirage by touch.

That is not true, the illusion of a lit lantern without a supporting spell to actually make it light the environment is very much possible to detect by vision.

The point of the rule passages you keep quoting is that understanding that it is an illusion will in no way remove the illusion, you just understand that it must be fake. This does in no way tell us that every illusion is bound to fool the observer no matter how implausible the object is. Your argument does not follow from text unless you add assumptions about heat and and light being different things and heat being an aspect of matter(something that is scientifically wrong).

The same applies to the feel sense...the spell does by its exact wording specify that the spell will make the surface of the illusion feel like the real thing. The examples are very specificly all about dead objects.

Why is there not any examples or discussion about creating illusionary living beings? Isn't it much more plausible that this idea was never considered since it is so obivously  against the design of the illusionist spell lists.
Why are there no discussion at all about how hot objects the illusionist can create if the intention ever was to allow heated illusions for free?

The spells put limits on what can be achieved with illusions. The illusionst has options to work around the limitations if he really want to. I really don't see the point with extending the feel spells like you propose when it will give lots of headaces when the effects of the spell conflicting with real science.

That pesky "other" sense again. . . you cannot detect it by feel alone, ergo the way it feels is as perfect as other aspects. . .which would require temperature. . .and mentions that power level issue that bugs you, and refutes it.

Nonsense, extra spells is needed to provide light to illusion so obviously the "other" sense argument is not as far reaching as you argue.

note an illusionist can actually create an object by using the 6th level spell (combining all 5 senses). Of course the object is temporary (only 1 minute per level) and is subject to detection by cancelling it's feel mirage; but it is, for all intents and purposes, a real object.

That's a pretty firm statement, a real warm muffin would be warm, a real person would have warm hands, a real ice cube would feel cold. It's magic, it's far more of a stretch of the imagination for me to create a steak on a plate out of nothing, than it is for me to fathom that it also happens to be a warm steak.

Object in the everyday use does not equal living beings. There is just like two thousand years of philosophers that has made an distinction about those two. Likewise objects does not in the everyday use equal processes like burning, heating, chilling, exploding etc. The length of time when scientists had made a distinction about objects and processes is very long.

I do agree that it is possible to claim that the word object can refer to everything that is not abstract, but you can't build logical arguments to convince me with that basis since I am free to think that the everyday use of the world is the most likelihood interpretation.  

As to the "Radiate" issue. . .you're confusing me with another poster above. . .I did make a few "even if you take it further" or "even if one considered it temperature neutral like pas" statements regarding that. . .but as close as I came personally to that was to say that if the fire cannot be so hot as to burn, it can't throw off radiant heat like a bonfire would. . . that's not to say it wouldn't radiate some heat, just that at non combat damaging heat/cold levels, the radiant feeling would be negligible. There is a specific notation that feels on illusions can't cause damage at all, and feels on phantasms always cause strikes if damage is called for.

Well...it is good to know that you think the heated illusion should radiate heat...but it totally beats me why you say it must be negligible.
What basis in the spell is there for this if we assume the sense spell work like you think?
Wouldn't limited heat radiation capability make the sense spell flawed since you could deduct that it is an illusion by noticing the object is the wrong temperature? Why does your argument if it is logical not extend into this scenario?

Why can't we can ourselves on the illusionary camp fire? There is no need for the illusion to be damage-hot to heat us. In fact any heat level that is that is above room temperature can slow your loss of heat, likewise any heat level that is above your body temperature is enough to heat you up.

What you basically trying to do is to say that there is some kind of blurry line where a player is allowed to tinker with temperature, but only up to a point that is determined from case to case. Strangely enough this interpretation is not ever suggested in the text of rules or in any of the examples unless we twist the meaning of the words. Again I am forced to conclude that your whole argument builds on the notion that essence illusions must be just as convincing as mentalist illusions because otherwise there would be limitation on how illusions can trick people.

Maybe it is time to agree to disagree...

[Emaughan]

.what exactly would an illusionist do with barely freezing or rather hot phantasms/illlusions of objects that's so game breakingly dangerous?

Smors - they could make SMORS!  Way too unbalancing - I take back everything I said about Illusionist being able to have any effect on the real world via minor elemental manipulation.

[Marc R]

Mmmmm Smores. . . .



The basis is that a feel illusion should feel right, and temperature is as much a part of feel as any of the other factors like texture or resiliancy.

In terms of reproduction, Heat, or cold is just a tiny tweak to the energy levels.

Go feel your wrist and hand. . . .the feel phantasm will perfectly duplicate the stifness of the bones, the resiliancy of the skin, the brushy feeling of the hair, the firm resistance of the muscle, the play of muscle and the feel of a pulse. . .All of those are far harder to do than mere warm or cold.

Check the text, yet again:

As already noted, the people sensing the effect can probably discern the illusion because of one of their other senses, and the illusion has a limited duration. The feel mirage is the most powerful, but it is a 5th level spell (as a comparison a 2nd level closed essence spell will summon a real creature for the same duration).

The feel mirage is more powerful, as it handles far more aspects. . .and you can't attack with it, you need a phantasm or strike for that. . .it's more powerful because it's the most complex of the mirages involved.

There is a specific limitation that attacks are strikes handled in a particular way. . .and there are specific other factors with seperate mirages, like presence or power. . .or light.

But unless you want to create a lightning bug or similar light producing creature, or a lantern or light producting fire any and all objects can be convincingly duplicated using illusion/sound/smell/taste/feel 5 part combo. That's not my opinion, that's what it says in the rules:

note an illusionist can actually create an object by using the 6th level spell (combining all 5 senses). Of course the object is temporary (only 1 minute per level) and is subject to detection by cancelling it's feel mirage; but it is, for all intents and purposes, a real object.

If you want it to radiate light, you need the light mirage, which is provided, if you want presence, power or any of those other non-tangible magical aspects, you need to use those spells, which are also provided.

The "Feel mirage" is broadly written, the highest level of the core 5 effects, and there is no "warmth mirage" provided. . .warmth/cold is necissary for feel to be convincing, the spell list states clearly, and the notes make multiple references to each of the senses being perfect enough that it's undetectable via the covered sense, requiring a missing sense to detect the fakery, and that with the 5 senses covered the illusion is in fact a temporary but real object. . .which means that any casual non damaging temperature variation necissary to make the feel element work actually exist.

You cannot create a convincingly real living being using phantasms without warmth, and you cannot create a convincingly real cool pool of water without coolness. . .there's no mention anywhere that "All living beings will be room temperature and thus feel wrong" or "Any object that should have a temperature variation will not, so illusions of living beings or cold objects will be fairly obviously fake if touched". . . .such hugely important matters would not have been ignored while the volumes of material about the complexity of illusions and phantasms were discussed. . .it's not like that would be a minor variation issue, that's a biggie. . .your house ruling makes it impossible to fake up a wide swath of objects using illusions, and essentially makes all living phantasms detectable by touch. . .which is so far off base of what the book says, that I have to conclude that you're simply incorect in your interpretation.

Feel mirages make illusions feel convincingly like something. . .you're stating that to be not true, which is in direct contradiction to what it says in the book. Various spells state that they "create" matter, you interpret that to mean something other than "create" because you want magic in your world more in line with physics. That's fine, as a house rule. . .Whatever you want to be true is true in your game world, but that doesn't alter what it says in the books.

Creates = creates
convincing feel = convincing feel

if you want

Creates = Brings to this location from elsewhere

or

Convincing Feel = Not so convincing feel

that's still you house ruling a change into play, not what it says in the book.

The books allow for perfectly convincing false objects to be created via illusion, and specifically state that to be true, if you don't like that for your game, feel free to change it, but your claiming that's not what the book says is confusing.