Author Topic: How could you use Gods and Devoit Followers rules in you campaign? (Reposted)  (Read 965 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 545
  • OIC Points +0/-0
I use a pantheon of around 16 gods in my campaign and would like to give characters who follow a specific god/goddess some benefits and abilities unique to each god.

Has anyone else done this?
I want seperate abilities for Devout Followers and Godsworn Followers.
Devoit Followers are decicated to one god and get minor 'gifts' that provide skills or talents.
Godsword Followers are the 'chosen' ones or champions of their respective deity who are granted major gifts bordering on spell like abilities and magical talents useable 3xday.

I use is rolemaster 2nd ed.

I’m thinking I will use a talent or skill that requires skill ranks and the character increases at leach level in followership and when they reach enough skill ranks they get benefits. These benefits or gifts are bestowed by their god and can be taken away if the character is not behaving in a manner that brings glory to their god or do not advance the goals of their god. Retaining any benefits might require a tithe or Quest for the priests of the gods temple.

Thoughts?

Offline alloowishus

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 121
  • OIC Points +0/-0
I think that is assumed when you are a channeling spell user, no? Channeling spell lists are essentially gifts from the gods given to devout followers. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 545
  • OIC Points +0/-0
The Gods

Shalpa - ILSIG god of thieves (SHAL-pah)
Devout Followers gain two skill ranks in these skills:
seduction
trap-building
ambush
hide
Godsworn of Vashanka gain these divine gifts:
(1) Blade of Night
(2) Divine Perception
(3) Mortal Might (Agility)
(4) Battle Fervor
(5) Subtle - All your Stalk and Hide maneuvers receive a special bonus of +25.

Wishvu - a foreign deity, (WISH-voo)
Devout Followers gain the talent Tolerance — You may take 150% of your concussion hits before falling unconscious (though death occurs at the normal loss of hits).
Godsworn of Wishvu gain these divine gifts:
(1) Battle Reflexes — You may make an extra initiative roll and select the one you wish to use.
(2) Aura of Courage
(3) Mortal Might (Quickness)

Shipri - Chief ILSIG goddess. The All-Mother, consort of Ils (SHIP-ree)
Devout Followers gain two skill ranks in these skills:
first aid
cookery
meditation
Godsworn of Heqt gain these divine gifts:
(1) Ensorcellment Cure — You may touch a target afflicted with a permanent magical disability (curse, lycanthropy, elc.). The disability must make a RR versus your level or be permanently dispelled. If the disability makes its RR, you may not try to remove it until you gain another level.
(2) Aura of Courage
(3) Divine Shield
(4) Smite Enemy
(5) Mother Touch

Anen - the ILSIG god of the harvest.
Devout Followers gain the talent Herbalist — You naturally recognize herbs and poisons and may use them, You also receive a special bonus of +30 to all of your Cooking, Foraging, Use Prepared Herbs, Prepare Herbs, Poison Lore, and Herb Lore maneuvers.
Godsworn of Heqt gain these divine gifts:
(1) Aura of Courage
(2) Divine Health
(3) Divine Protection
(4) Divine Fortitude
(5) Animal Empathy — You have empathy with" certain type of animal. Any maneuver wilh such an animal receives a special bonus of +25 to it. If you associate with a specific animal for a month, you can communicate empathically that animal from a range of 1' for every level you have. The GM will have to determine what qualifies as an acceptable animal.

Azyuna - one of the chief Rankan deities, sister and cohort of VASHANKA (A-ZYOO-nuh)
Devout Followers gain the talent Relic Lore ‐ You receive a special bonus of +25 to your Use Staves/Wands skill.
Godsworn of Azyuna gain these divine gifts:
(1) Eloquence: PC requires one less round of preparation than normal to cast a spell. It still takes one round to cast the spell.
(2) Divine Perception
(3) Mortal Might (Presence)
(4) Smite Enemy
(5) Denial of Fate

Eshi - Ilsig goddess of love, The Green Lady.
Devout Followers gain two skill ranks in these skills:
seduction
dance
singing
Godsworn of Heqt gain these divine gifts:
(1) Aura of Courage
(2) Divine Health
(3) Divine Protection
(4) Divine Fortitude
(5) Look of Eagles — People who are your allies, troops, friends, or retainers receive +25 to RRs versus panic and morale while you are well and in sight.

Savankala - the chief Rankan god. (Sah-vahn-KAH-lah)
Devout Followers gain the talent Battle Cry — You may shout your "battle cry" before entering combat. When you do this, you receive a special bonus of +10 to your OB and DB for the remainder of the combat. You may only use this ability once per day.
Godsworn of Savankala gain these divine gifts:
(1) Battle Reflexes — You may make an extra initiative roll and select the one you wish to use.
(2) Aura of Courage
(3) Mortal Might (Any Stat)
(4) Smite Enemy
(5) Energy Resistance

Weda Krishtawn - water goddess of SHERRANPIP. (WAY-da KRISH-tawn)
Devoit Followers gain the talent Spatial Skills — The ranges of your spells are greater than those of most other mages. Your spells with a range of Self are actually a range of Touch. Those with a range of Touch are actually a range of 5'. All other spells add 50' to their ranges. However, this extension of range only affects one Type of spell (Force. Utility, Directed EIemental, etc.). This ability can be purchased once for every spell type.

Dyareela - minor foriegn goddess noted for the bloodthirstiness of her worshippers.The Blood Queen. (Die-ahr-EE-la)
Devout Followers are fanatical and ignore 1 round of stun for every 2 levels of experience. They gain the talent Fanatic — You believe very strongly in one ideal or person. This could be a ruler, a loved one, a country, or a religion. This failh is more impartant to you than anything else, even to fault. You will probably not notice any failings in what you believe in, and you may even be willing to die for it. You follow the code or commands of what you believe in faithfully and fanatically. You can see no greater way to serve what you believe in.
Godsworn of Dyareela gain these divine gifts:
(1) Bonus Feat
(2) Divine Protection
(3) Smite Enemy
(4) Battle Fervor

Witezar the Yenized god of magic.
Devout Followers gain the talent Mana Reading — You receive a special bonus of +15 to your Attunement skill.
Godsworn Followers gain these divine gifts:
(1) Eloquence: PC requires one less round of preparation than normal to cast a spell. It still takes one round to cast the spell.
(2) Divine Perception
(3) Mortal Might (Empathy)
(4) Exceptional Magical Ability — You are exceptionally enchanted. You receive a special bonus of +50 to your RR versus one realm and a special bonus of +25 when casting spells or using items based in that realm.

Shava the old Enlibar goddess of magic.
Devout Followers gain the talent Ethereal Sight — By closing your eyes and concentrating for 2d10 rounds, you can change your vision so that you can perceive invisible things. This lasts 10d10 minutes and may only be used once per day. Using this ability does not interfere with your normal vision.
Godsworn Followers gain the talent Magical Resistance — You have a strange resistance to magic. You receive a special bonus of +30 to your RRs versus one realm of magic.

Sabellia - chief Rankan Goddess.
Lady of the stars, cohort of SAVANKALA (Suh-BEL-ee-ah)
Devout Followers gain two skill ranks in each of these skills:
linguistics
read runes
staves/wands
falsification
mathematics
star-gazing
Godsworn of Heqt gain these divine gifts:
(1) Channel Divine Power
(2) Divine Protection
(3) Mortal Might (Intuition)
(4) Animal Companion (Owl)
(5) Mental Link — You have a special form of telepathy between you and one other person (or animal), You can send and receive thoughts between each other. You must be within sight to establish a "connection." Once established, the mental link will function over an unlimited physical distance. If one of the connected persons falls unconscious, the link is broken. If only one of the two people purchases this talent, that person may send his thoughts and the other person will receive them, but the reverse is not true.

Klooshna - a foreign deity of Death.
Devout Followers gane the talent Bane — You may select one creature type (subject to the GM's approval) against which all of your criticals do an additional "Slaying" critical.
Godsworn of Klooshna gain these divine gifts:
(1) Charmed Divine Power
(2) Divine Health
(3) Lifewarded
(4) Divine Fortitude

Heqt goddess of fertility. Bringer of the spring rains. Heqt is the primary goddess of Cirdon.
Devout Followers gain the talent Special Familiar — You have a special kind of familiar. You may pick any creature (subject to the GM's approval) but it should be a creature appropriate to your background. Your bond with this creature starts at first level. You must split your experience with your familiar (thus, you gain levels slower, but you and your familiar will always be the same level). However, your familiar gains levels, new powers and abilities will be discovered (GM's discretion as to the nature of these abilities). If the familiar dies, you will be at -25 to all actions for two weeks.
Godsworn of Heqt gain these divine gifts:
Aura of Courage
Divine Health
Mortal Might
Energy Resistance

Tiana Savior - S'Danzo deity. (Tee-AH-nah)
Devoit Followers gain the talent Visions — You receive spontaneous glimpses of events that are associated with a particar place, person, or item that you touch (with your bare skin). This talent is useable once per day plus one additional time per SD bonus (a negative SD bonus results in zero additional times per day).

Thufir, ILSIG God of Pilgrims. (THOO-fir)
His sandal is nailed over doorways for luck.
Devout Followers gain the latent Quiet Stride — You have a quick and quiet stride. You receive a special bonus of +20 to your Stalking skill, you may ambush anyone from behind with a special bonus of +10 to your Ambush skill, and receive a special bonus of +20 bonus for all balancing maneuvers.
Godsworn of Thufir gain these divine gifts:
(1) Divine Health
(2) Divine Perception
(3) Mortal Might (Constitution)
(4) Mount

Enlil, ancient god of storm and wind.
Devout Followers gain the talent Blessed by War God — You have been blessed by a god of war. You receive a special bonus of +10 to your St, Qu, Ag, and Co stats bonuses. You may cast one spell per day from the Holy Arms spell list (maximum of your current level); no Power Points are required for this casting. There is a 10% chance per month (non cumulative) that you will be "quested" to carry out some mission for your god.
Godsworn Followers gain the talent Battle Reflexes — You may make an extra initiative roll and select the one you wish to use.

Offline netbat

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 258
  • OIC Points +0/-0
If you are interested in something similar, look up Thomas Stobie's article on specialty priests in the guild companion - june 2004. His initiates are similar to your godsworn, although they are much less powerful.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
                                                   Emily Dickenson

Offline PiXeL01

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 631
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Seeing things from the top of Mt. Fuji
Very interesting to say the least.

I have always used Cleric’s Law from Companion I and just assigned additional spell lists based on the deity to clerics. Granting other abilities might shift the balance too much in favor of channeling users though an argument could be if you don’t fulfill the tenets of religion to the T your ability would vanish instantly.
PiXeL01 - RM2/RMC Fanboy

I think violence in games only causes violence in real life if the person in question has an insufficient mental capacity to deal with the real world in the first place. But, that's more the fault of poor genetics and poorer parenting than it is the fault of a videogame

Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 545
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Very interesting to say the least.

I have always used Cleric’s Law from Companion I and just assigned additional spell lists based on the deity to clerics. Granting other abilities might shift the balance too much in favor of channeling users though an argument could be if you don’t fulfill the tenets of religion to the T your ability would vanish instantly.

yep, im all for 'guiding' players to support their dieties goals. imo each god would have a fouvered champion who would get a boon that other followers dont get. making abilities available to non challenging realms is also a possibilty and doesnt skew power just to channeling users.

Offline Jengada

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 409
  • OIC Points +0/-0
I had responded to the earlier post, but to put things all in one thread here's that reply:
Quote
MisterK raises some good points about granting skills and spending DPs, and then possibly taking them away. That would feel heavy handed, as a player.
That said, my thoughts after reading Druss' post were still mostly skill based. I thought of two basic scenarios. In both cases, service to the deity could result in gaining very specific skills - and I would be inclined to make those skills secondary skills, not core skills that a player will really need to develop.
The first case would be where there is really only one skill appropriate to the deity, and in return for X amount of service, the devout follower gets 1 rank in that skill.
The second case is where there may be more than one skill (nature deity, for example, might have both foraging and tracking as possible skills). The devout follower could get a small number of DP that can only go towards those skills, and then could save them up over levels if needed, but could still only spend then on the allowed skills.
If you do think you'll ever be taking away the boon from the deity, I might lean towards not using skills but using a 1st level spell as the boon. It's much more plausible that the deity can give and take small channeling bonuses, than skills that the character has spent time and their expertise developing.
Elaborating a bit, I always customize clerics for the religion. Some get different base lists. Some get modified skill costs. Some get different level bonuses. Some get a mix of those. Some religions also get modified paladins, semi-spell users suited to the faith.
I'll re-emphasize my last point, though, about boons for noncleric followers. Skills are such an investment by a player that taking them away is pretty harsh.
We ask the hard questions here, because they keep us too busy to worry about the hard questions in the real world, and we can go with the answers we like the best.

Offline chook

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Check out the Channelling Companion for RMSS.  It has a lot of discussion around this kind of thing that you might find interesting.  Outside of the professions a lot of the work is conceptual and might provide some inspiration.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Check out the Channelling Companion for RMSS.  It has a lot of discussion around this kind of thing that you might find interesting.  Outside of the professions a lot of the work is conceptual and might provide some inspiration.
Lot's of spell lists intended for use with being used with specialized clerics ('Priests').  Pure, Semi and Arm Priest templates.  Some talents geared towards religious characters.  Don't want to toot my own horn, but it's the kind of book I'd buy regardless of what RM version I used and adapt the material.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 662
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Check out the Channelling Companion for RMSS.  It has a lot of discussion around this kind of thing that you might find interesting.  Outside of the professions a lot of the work is conceptual and might provide some inspiration.
Lot's of spell lists intended for use with being used with specialized clerics ('Priests').  Pure, Semi and Arm Priest templates.  Some talents geared towards religious characters.  Don't want to toot my own horn, but it's the kind of book I'd buy regardless of what RM version I used and adapt the material.
It *is* useful, even if I sometimes scratch my head at the list selection (some are very niche, and I get the feeling that there are a few glaring holes). My main complaint about the lists was that there were no additional Open or Closed Channeling lists - and the original SL selection is somewhat underwhelming to begin with.
But the three magic companions of RMSS (EssCo, ChaCo and MenCo) are some of my favourite. I cannot say the same for Arcane Companion or Treasure Companion, sadly. Making Arcane a separate pseudo-realm instead of handling it as it was originally proposed in RoCo 1 was IMHO a mistake, and the handling of enchantment in RM has always felt very awkward, cumbersome and underwhelming.

Offline katastrophe

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 126
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Check out the Channelling Companion for RMSS.  It has a lot of discussion around this kind of thing that you might find interesting.  Outside of the professions a lot of the work is conceptual and might provide some inspiration.
Lot's of spell lists intended for use with being used with specialized clerics ('Priests').  Pure, Semi and Arm Priest templates.  Some talents geared towards religious characters.  Don't want to toot my own horn, but it's the kind of book I'd buy regardless of what RM version I used and adapt the material.

Conceptually I believe this is the best of the companions. I wish the “design a specialist” approach taken in the Channeling Companion had been adopted in each of the companion books. Definitely would stop the need for Profession creep.

I think making specialty priest or Paladin under the rules in this book would be the way to go for the OP. Getting into “giving away” a bunch of free points or talents can get unbalancing really quick.

I would stay away from giving free ranks for skills or free skills and such. If I really wanted to represent some gifts from the gods outside of regular levels up, I’d consider looking at the talents from character law and maybe use skilled to provide +5-10 to a skill or skill category. The player would still need to buy the skill and ranks but would just be better at it. And the GM can know how many points above base each PC is.

.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,357
  • OIC Points +0/-0

But the three magic companions of RMSS (EssCo, ChaCo and MenCo) are some of my favourite. I cannot say the same for Arcane Companion or Treasure Companion, sadly. Making Arcane a separate pseudo-realm instead of handling it as it was originally proposed in RoCo 1 was IMHO a mistake, and the handling of enchantment in RM has always felt very awkward, cumbersome and underwhelming.

Agreed!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
It *is* useful, even if I sometimes scratch my head at the list selection (some are very niche, and I get the feeling that there are a few glaring holes).
You're talking about all those example priest base list sets (not the individual lists themselves)?  That was put together by someone at the current version of ICE at the time.  It showing up in the book was a surprise to us (and I agree with your opinion).

Quote
My main complaint about the lists was that there were no additional Open or Closed Channeling lists
We thought about it, but two things stopped us.  One, we didn't want to get too redundant.  Two, we were limited to a page count.  We could easily have made that book twice as thick.

Quote
But the three magic companions of RMSS (EssCo, ChaCo and MenCo) are some of my favourite. I cannot say the same for Arcane Companion or Treasure Companion, sadly. Making Arcane a separate pseudo-realm instead of handling it as it was originally proposed in RoCo 1 was IMHO a mistake, and the handling of enchantment in RM has always felt very awkward, cumbersome and underwhelming.
I love the Martial Arts Companion.  Wish it'd had a Channeling Monk and I would like to have put that in the Channeling Companion too but, again, page count.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Conceptually I believe this is the best of the companions. I wish the “design a specialist” approach taken in the Channeling Companion had been adopted in each of the companion books. Definitely would stop the need for Profession creep.
That was exactly part of the broader intent with the concept, preventing too much profession creep.  Some day when I retire or win the lotto I'll take the time to do the same with a Ranger book.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 662
  • OIC Points +0/-0
It *is* useful, even if I sometimes scratch my head at the list selection (some are very niche, and I get the feeling that there are a few glaring holes).
You're talking about all those example priest base list sets (not the individual lists themselves)?  That was put together by someone at the current version of ICE at the time.  It showing up in the book was a surprise to us (and I agree with your opinion).
No, I'm talking about the spell lists.

I find some lists really uninspired (Aquatic Forms, Land Forms, Faith's Shield), overly generic (Divine Magic, Spirit Domination, Spirit Law), unhelpful (Holy Element - seriously, that list looks like the element-generic lists of the Elemental Companion, and that's *not* a compliment. Furthermore, you have Holy Wind, which is a fair example on how to do an element-specific list, a few pages later), niche and bizarre in their specifics (Serpent Law). The elemental lists (Holy Wind, Stone Mastery) have a very Essential feel to them, and almost no Channeling (as in 'divine inspiration') feel.
On the other hand, such important domains as Sun, Night, Fertility, Hearth/Protection, Craft, War, Fire, and so on, are not covered.

I would have expected an approach presenting how a given domain is handled by the divinity and, as such, what powers the followers can pray for. A divinity of fire as a chtonian force, violent and destructive, but also purifying and leaving potential for new life in its wake, would have a very different outlook and set of follower powers than, say, a divinity of fire that focuses on bringing light and warmth, fending off the beasts of the night, and giving visions. I think the book (like most other companions) would have benefited from more design notes and less historical notes - anyone can hit the internet to look for historical information that might or might not be relevant to their game, but no one can peek into the mind of the authors to know what was their logic and their intent when they came up with the rules they wrote.

On the other hand, I was very interested in the Summoner and Mythic professions and associated spell lists (I used both). I didn't like the warlock much, mostly because of the Transformations list, which seemed at odds with the other ones - an entity contact and possession list would have fit better, I think.

Last (but not least, I guess), I think you focused too much on religions based on deities, and also too much on spells. I would be hard-pressed to design a Shinto priest (or a Buddhist one, for that matter) with that kind of focus. Pantheic faiths (one faiths that covers everything) are very common in the real world but, for some reason, have been mostly ignored by fantasy RPGs that focus on polytheistic religions with discrete and competing spheres of power. Pantheic priests would have "something for everything" within the limits of religion - meaning that they know they do not *command* the world but try to petition for assistance or a boon, whereas most lists are focused on the intent and will of the priest, which is a very arcane way of doing things. Spells are basically that - the will of the priest changing the world - while I would have expected a system that focused on the will of the *divine* (or spirits, or whatever) and how the priest could petition for help in small or large ways but never *command* the divine. Basically a complete overhaul of the channeling rules to focus on rituals and relation with the divine instead of spells, and with prepared items imbued with the power of the divine (scrolls, warding stones, unguents or draughts...). And I think that kind of approach could have been a blueprint for the alchemy and construct companions.

Oh well. At least it gives me ideas :)



Offline Druss_the_Legend

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 545
  • OIC Points +0/-0
It *is* useful, even if I sometimes scratch my head at the list selection (some are very niche, and I get the feeling that there are a few glaring holes).
You're talking about all those example priest base list sets (not the individual lists themselves)?  That was put together by someone at the current version of ICE at the time.  It showing up in the book was a surprise to us (and I agree with your opinion).
No, I'm talking about the spell lists.

I find some lists really uninspired (Aquatic Forms, Land Forms, Faith's Shield), overly generic (Divine Magic, Spirit Domination, Spirit Law), unhelpful (Holy Element - seriously, that list looks like the element-generic lists of the Elemental Companion, and that's *not* a compliment. Furthermore, you have Holy Wind, which is a fair example on how to do an element-specific list, a few pages later), niche and bizarre in their specifics (Serpent Law). The elemental lists (Holy Wind, Stone Mastery) have a very Essential feel to them, and almost no Channeling (as in 'divine inspiration') feel.
On the other hand, such important domains as Sun, Night, Fertility, Hearth/Protection, Craft, War, Fire, and so on, are not covered.

I would have expected an approach presenting how a given domain is handled by the divinity and, as such, what powers the followers can pray for. A divinity of fire as a chtonian force, violent and destructive, but also purifying and leaving potential for new life in its wake, would have a very different outlook and set of follower powers than, say, a divinity of fire that focuses on bringing light and warmth, fending off the beasts of the night, and giving visions. I think the book (like most other companions) would have benefited from more design notes and less historical notes - anyone can hit the internet to look for historical information that might or might not be relevant to their game, but no one can peek into the mind of the authors to know what was their logic and their intent when they came up with the rules they wrote.

On the other hand, I was very interested in the Summoner and Mythic professions and associated spell lists (I used both). I didn't like the warlock much, mostly because of the Transformations list, which seemed at odds with the other ones - an entity contact and possession list would have fit better, I think.

Last (but not least, I guess), I think you focused too much on religions based on deities, and also too much on spells. I would be hard-pressed to design a Shinto priest (or a Buddhist one, for that matter) with that kind of focus. Pantheic faiths (one faiths that covers everything) are very common in the real world but, for some reason, have been mostly ignored by fantasy RPGs that focus on polytheistic religions with discrete and competing spheres of power. Pantheic priests would have "something for everything" within the limits of religion - meaning that they know they do not *command* the world but try to petition for assistance or a boon, whereas most lists are focused on the intent and will of the priest, which is a very arcane way of doing things. Spells are basically that - the will of the priest changing the world - while I would have expected a system that focused on the will of the *divine* (or spirits, or whatever) and how the priest could petition for help in small or large ways but never *command* the divine. Basically a complete overhaul of the channeling rules to focus on rituals and relation with the divine instead of spells, and with prepared items imbued with the power of the divine (scrolls, warding stones, unguents or draughts...). And I think that kind of approach could have been a blueprint for the alchemy and construct companions.

Oh well. At least it

gives me ideas :)

great post.
too much to unpack in one reply but this kinda highlights how a generic magic system like rolemaster can be used and adpated for a cohesive world/setting. I initially used a very low magic system with non spell casting pcs. now im starting to see the potential for creaing a custom world around magic and a handful of spell using professions.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
No, I'm talking about the spell lists. (cut out all the comment)
I, personally, like the really customized/specialized stuff that has some good 'feel' to them, but we had to stay at least somewhat generic for Rolemaster. So many users have their own version of it and settings that getting too specific could cause the book to be less useful to a broader audience.  Otherwise you'd end up with a bunch of stuff that fits OUR style game.  We had a lot of the rough material in that book created before even considering proposing it to ICE, so we actually had to UNDO some of our own personal style for to fit the broader audience.  The element lists you speak of are a good example of that.  I have a set of Base lists for an 'Elementalist' profession that is semi-spell user version of the Magician that are more unique.

Quote
On the other hand, I was very interested in the Summoner and Mythic professions and associated spell lists (I used both).
I like the Mythic most, the Summoner second (though my own version might differ from the published one). Warlock, meh, it was more for the older RM users.

Quote
Last (but not least, I guess), I think you focused too much on religions based on deities, and also too much on spells.
I kinda disagree with that (although not completely). There's just not much to say about obtaining Channeling power from a non-deity.  In own setting Channeling based professions like Druids and Rangers wouldn't actually get their power from a Deity, but rather from the flora and fauna itself, but there's really not that much interesting to say about that process from a broader outlook (so more users could adapt it to their games).  It's the professions themselves and whatever their unique spell lists have that really gives them flavor from a mechanics angle (the story angle would be up to the individual gamer).

Quote
I would be hard-pressed to design a Shinto priest (or a Buddhist one, for that matter) with that kind of focus. Pantheic faiths (one faiths that covers everything) are very common in the real world but, for some reason, have been mostly ignored by fantasy RPGs that focus on polytheistic religions with discrete and competing spheres of power.
I would have done the various Monk's in the Martial Arts Companion different (and included a Channeling one) to be a little more historic (if in a mythical historical way), but that book did a LOT to make Pure Arms Users in general more interesting.

Quote
(cut the lead up to this) Basically a complete overhaul of the channeling rules to focus on rituals and relation with the divine instead of spells, and with prepared items imbued with the power of the divine (scrolls, warding stones, unguents or draughts...). And I think that kind of approach could have been a blueprint for the alchemy and construct companions.
You're talking about letting ICE let us completely re-organize how their system worked though. That wasn't going to happen. Heck, they didn't even like the idea of not having a pre-built specific 'Priest' with a static set of six base lists (which would have completely defeated the purpose of it in the first place).  We effectively had to say 'If we don't do it our way we just don't do it' (meaning the book).  The compromise was an 'optional' set of rules (which I'm willing to be the best majority use).

Quote
Oh well. At least it gives me ideas :)
Good post, even if I don't agree with some of it.  I was actually a little disappointed that we didn't get more constructive feedback (i.e. negative) back when it first came out.  It's exactly the kind of feedback we need to potentially make future books better.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
I initially used a very low magic system with non spell casting pcs. now im starting to see the potential for creating a custom world around magic and a handful of spell using professions.
My own setting actually seems very low magic ('magic' is feared/mistrusted), but in actuality it's fairly common, the population just don't realize it's magic.
A lot of it is subtle enough not to be caught, explained away as the 'village healer', someone who's just 'good with animals', or just plain old explained away by religion (Channeling user can often be more open about it because they're considered holy/divine/whatever you want to call it).
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 662
  • OIC Points +0/-0
You're talking about letting ICE let us completely re-organize how their system worked though. That wasn't going to happen. Heck, they didn't even like the idea of not having a pre-built specific 'Priest' with a static set of six base lists (which would have completely defeated the purpose of it in the first place).  We effectively had to say 'If we don't do it our way we just don't do it' (meaning the book).  The compromise was an 'optional' set of rules (which I'm willing to be the best majority use).
I am talking about providing alternatives. For me, RM was always about alternatives, even though I thought that RM2 was lacking in balance-checking and RMSS was lacking in diversity.
For example, section 7 in the Channeling Companion could have been greatly expanded upon a form the full basis for divine-oriented characters. Expand on the details on what is a minor, moderate, major and greater help, providing level and spell equivalents and give lists for iconic domains and orientations. The way to achieve those results would have been expanded far beyond section 7.5 (the manoeuver), and would touch all aspects of ritual prayer, including how to balance props and sacrifices with the expected benefit, and providing examples of positive locations, influences, reagents, sacrifices, and so on appropriate for various requests.
Similarly, relations with spirits would have been a full section of the book (and probably include a handful of professions) - because you have so many different types of spirits (spirits of nature, spirits of man, spirits of the dead, and that's not even touching spirits from alien origins), and you want to be able to pique their interest, cajole them into paying attention to what you want, and make sure they keep their side of the bargain, or, conversely, make sure that they do not notice you or do not have hateful or malicious intentions towards you - leading to sympathetic magic to manipulate the spirits according to what they are.
You could even have spell lists to *support* interaction with the divine - spells that provide appropriate knowledge, that allow to prepare appropriate components for rituals, that provide ways to communicate with spirits (because most spirits would not speak the tongues of mortals), or that provide ways to make a location more in tune with some spirits by altering the way power flows around them and the 'hue' of the power. You would have shamans, spiritualists and spirit warriors, rituals to prepare wards imbued with characters inimical to specific kinds of hostile spirits, spells to prepare pigments to make spirit-empowered war paints when the spirit is called and accepts to enter the tattoo and provide a boon relevant to its nature.
You can still have spells - only, those spells do not provide shortcuts to the communing rituals with the divine and do not imply that the powers of the divine are at the beck and call of the faithful. The spells provide tools to prepare those rituals and imbue the containers that would host spirits, allow the faithful to see the traces of the divine in the mundane world, detect spiritual influence, and so on.

Now if ICE was dead-set on keeping to the straight and narrow path of the basic rules, there was precious little you could do.