Topic: Poisoned weapons used in combat

[Druss_the_Legend]

If you use poison in your game,

1) how many arrows/short blades/long blades does was dose allow to be poisoned?
2) do you require PCs to make Poison Lore and or Use/Remove Poison skill checks to prep and/or administer it
3) in combat, how do you rule any amount of damage done by the poisoned weapon administers the poison to the target or is a critical is needed for it to work?
4) how long does the poison remain potent for once it is put onto a blade?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

1) I don't understand your sentence,
2) To apply the poison, I require them to make a successful use poison skill roll,
3) Isn't the answer in the Ch&CL? Like, you know, at p28?
4) Isn't the answer in the Ch&CL as well? Like, you know, at p28?

[Druss_the_Legend]

If you use poison in your game,

1) how many arrows/short blades/long blades does ONE dose allow to be poisoned?

[Druss_the_Legend]

1) I don't understand your sentence,
2) To apply the poison, I require them to make a successful use poison skill roll,
3) Isn't the answer in the Ch&CL? Like, you know, at p28?
4) Isn't the answer in the Ch&CL as well? Like, you know, at p28?

thanks for the reply. my rulebook has info on Drakes on pg 28. must be older rules version. Care to share what your rules say about poison? I rule that you have to deliver a critical for the poison to take affect and I only really allow poisons that have a paste for to be suitable for coating a blade or arrow. Interested to hear what pther GMs do.

[MisterK]

I haven't found it either. p28 for RM2 ChL&CL is the herbs and poison charts, and i does not provide that kind of details. RMSS/RPFRP does not provide the info in the standard rules. I could not find it either in the RMU poison and disease section (at least in the publicly available Beta book).

The only bit of info I could find is in the RMFRP Gamemaster Law, where it is indicated that it requires a critical (with the implicit idea that non-critical results do not hit flesh but armor and are, as such, ineffective to deliver poison.

I would go even further and say that it depends on the type of poison: for contact poison, maybe. But for others, you would need to actually inflict an open wound for them to have any effect. It also depends on the critical description - a critical where armour obviously absorbs part of the blow, converting an open wound into concussion, would not allow poison to affect the victim.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I haven't found it either. p28 for RM2 ChL&CL is the herbs and poison charts, and i does not provide that kind of details. RMSS/RPFRP does not provide the info in the standard rules. I could not find it either in the RMU poison and disease section (at least in the publicly available Beta book).

The only bit of info I could find is in the RMFRP Gamemaster Law, where it is indicated that it requires a critical (with the implicit idea that non-critical results do not hit flesh but armor and are, as such, ineffective to deliver poison.

I would go even further and say that it depends on the type of poison: for contact poison, maybe. But for others, you would need to actually inflict an open wound for them to have any effect. It also depends on the critical description - a critical where armour obviously absorbs part of the blow, converting an open wound into concussion, would not allow poison to affect the victim.

good point about the actual details of critical. maybe minimum of 5 hits from the critical are needed for the poison to be effective?

[MisterK]

good point about the actual details of critical. maybe minimum of 5 hits from the critical are needed for the poison to be effective?

I'm not sure I'll go that way. If you consider the Slash critical strikes, for instance, any bleeding wound (even 1 hit/round) is good for most poisons (contact, circulatory, probably muscle as well). Shatter wounds (such as the '66' on crit A) are probably right as well. But on the other hand, most crush crits are probably not right unless there's actual armor penetration, which is seldom described.
Basically, slash and puncture criticals are good as soon as they actually inflict a wound and not a glancing hit, while crush criticals are not good unless they actually penetrate armour (and crush something beneath). Crushing weapons are not good poisoning weapons, but that should come as no surprise there.

[damage]

I haven't found it either. p28 for RM2 ChL&CL is the herbs and poison charts, and i does not provide that kind of details. RMSS/RPFRP does not provide the info in the standard rules. I could not find it either in the RMU poison and disease section (at least in the publicly available Beta book).

It does appear to be above the charts on ICE1300 RM2 Character & Campaign Law p28, within the Form and Preparation section. You do need to look carefully. I missed it the first time, too...

"Paste - Raw matter is made into a paste that may be put in food or drink or be applied to tools or weapons and stays effective for one week, or until an object or person is struck. If poison is used and a crit obtained, foe must make an RR or receive the effect. If the effect is merely hits (no crit), the poison is gone."

I'm an RMSS/RMFRP player, and have always played that a crit must be obtained for the poison to take effect. However, I've never found much info about it in the rules.

1) how many arrows/short blades/long blades does was dose allow to be poisoned?

One dose, one application. Applying it to one arrowhead may take the same amount of poison as a sword - you don't necessarily need to coat the entire surface of the blade, after all.

2) do you require PCs to make Poison Lore and or Use/Remove Poison skill checks to prep and/or administer it

Use/remove poison, yes, unless they're doing it magically (Magent lists etc). Poison lore may give a bonus to use/remove poison, but isn't a requirement.

3) in combat, how do you rule any amount of damage done by the poisoned weapon administers the poison to the target or is a critical is needed for it to work?

Crit is required. However, I do use the RMFRP effect descriptions on p93 of RMFRP GM Law, which means a successfully applied poison may take quite a while to actually start taking serious effect. Interestingly, I don't see this in RM2. It does make poisons in combat in RMFRP much less useful, since by the time a poison starts kicking in, the combat's usually over. Poisons taking this long are more useful in sneaky situations than melee.

4) how long does the poison remain potent for once it is put onto a blade?

Until you hit something with the blade, or about a day.

[MisterK]

It does appear to be above the charts on ICE1300 RM2 Character & Campaign Law p28, within the Form and Preparation section. You do need to look carefully. I missed it the first time, too...

Indeed ! Hidden in the "form and preparation" which is itself more or less hidden in the table itself. No wonder I missed it, even though I *did* read that section back in the day when I was still using RM2...

1) how many arrows/short blades/long blades does was dose allow to be poisoned?

One dose, one application. Applying it to one arrowhead may take the same amount of poison as a sword - you don't necessarily need to coat the entire surface of the blade, after all.

Honestly, I would HR it to have a bunch of arrows (about 10) coated. However, the arrows must be carefully transported afterwards because you would lose much of the coating in a standard quiver.
For blades, I would assume you coat the edge - or maybe the inside of the sheath, or both.

[Hurin]

Crit is required. However, I do use the RMFRP effect descriptions on p93 of RMFRP GM Law, which means a successfully applied poison may take quite a while to actually start taking serious effect. Interestingly, I don't see this in RM2. It does make poisons in combat in RMFRP much less useful, since by the time a poison starts kicking in, the combat's usually over. Poisons taking this long are more useful in sneaky situations than melee.

I think it was the same in RM2. Even the Mild results usually take so long to kick in that they are not relevant in combat. But then there were some specific results listed under specific poisons in the price chart: e.g. in the #1300 Character Law, p. 30, there were poisons such as Jeggarukh, which 'gives 10-100 hits'. There is no specification of how long that takes to effect. So I always was confronted by this dichotomy of systems that I could never really resolve, and I don't think any edition really resolved the dichotomy to my satisfaction.

[jdale]

The relevant rules for RMU are in Treasure Law, which covers preparation of poison:

• Liquid: Nectar, venom, juice, or the like, a liquid requires 1-10 rounds to extract (a Light maneuver). If applied to a weapon, it will remain effective for one hour or until it strikes a target (see Paste description). In a closed container, it will last 1-10 days before losing potency.
• Paste: Raw matter is made into a paste which may be put in food or drink or be applied to tools or weapons and stays effective up to one week, or until an object or person is struck; if a poison paste is used and a critical is obtained, the foe must make an RR or he receives the effect; if the attack result is merely hits (no crit), the poison is wasted. Applying a healing paste to a weapon is probably a sign of mental illness. Preparing a paste takes 10 minutes and is a Medium Herbalism maneuver.

I have often intended to use poison against the PCs but I almost always forget about it during the battle.

[Hurin]

That definitively answers the question about applying poisons (though I might do a houserule that Krush crits that do not specify bleeding provide the target with a +15 to the RR, as it is hard to apply a poison with a club).

As for the different times to effect: how long does it take Jeggarukh (which has made the transition to RMU) to affect the target? Is it instant?

[rdanhenry]

As for the different times to effect: how long does it take Jeggarukh (which has made the transition to RMU) to affect the target? Is it instant?

RMU Treasure Law (beta edition, but I doubt this has been changed:

The effects listed below are the specific effects of the listed poison. These effects will occur when the
victim fails his RR. These effects will occur in addition to the general effects of that type of poison (and
take priority when there is a conflict). If no specific effect is given, just use the general effects of the
poison type (see A&CL Section 14.7 for general poison effects).

"These effects will occur when the victim fails his RR", so unless a delay is specified (e.g., "after 1-10 rounds"), the effect should be immediate.

[Hurin]

Thanks Rdan. That resolves the mechanics, and ensures that at least the specific poisons can be useful in combat.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Thanks for the input here thus far. Its helped!

In my current campaign assassins use poisoned weapons often. This adds to the danger and deadliness of the game for sure. I just wanted to see how others deal with poison in combat. Some poisons would be slower acting and others instant effect. gives you some scope to work with and this can be reflected in the cost and availability of poisons to balance things as needed.

[MisterK]

"instant effect" might be a bit short. You need to leave a bit of time for the poison/venom/toxin to take effect - perhaps a couple of rounds for the quickest effects.
The quickest effects would likely be nerve toxins (nerve damage and paralysis). Damaging poisons would take longer, I believe.

But why would assassins expect combat ? An assassin would either use poison indirectly (poisoning food, drink, or use contact poisons on clothing and tools), or strike while the victim is unaware and preferably asleep. Assassins would try to avoid combat as much as possible, given the risk of mission failure. Using poison in combat is for thugs, not assassins

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

"instant effect" might be a bit short. You need to leave a bit of time for the poison/venom/toxin to take effect - perhaps a couple of rounds for the quickest effects.
The quickest effects would likely be nerve toxins (nerve damage and paralysis). Damaging poisons would take longer, I believe.

If one wants to give poisons a more "realistic" effect, one should use the poison chart, chapter 7.1.5 p12 of the Ch&CL, instead of the specific poison price chart p30. In fact, one would probably even better use the poison guidelines in the C&T or C&T II, since those include said poison chart, along with alternate and more realistic ways to handle whether a victim is affected, namely the constitution-based severity and the luck-based severity, as the RR method is level-based and levels are nothing but a game abstraction with no realistic aspect whatsoever. OTOH, the specific poison price chart p30 gives a faster, more fantasy-oriented and, mayhap, funnier approach so...

[Jengada]

This is really timely for my RM2 game, too - thanks Druss Thread-starter!
I had forgotten the paste/liquid guidelines. And I was always frustrated by the fact the tables of specific poisons didn't conform to the generic poison rules. In particular, I would have liked the specific poisons to include a generic poison type in the cases where it's applicable. The RMU bit rdanhenry cited about "The effects listed below are the specific effects of the listed poison. These effects will occur when the
victim fails his RR. These effects will occur in addition to the general effects of that type of poison (and
take priority when there is a conflict)." is a big improvement. I'm putting together a poison stash for the adventure the PCs are in right now, and I'll be using that mechanic as I make up the poisons.
Homebrew: Long ago I combined herbs and poisons in my game. Both are foreign substances introduced to the body, the name just differentiates whether we consider them positive or negative in their impact. Often, a substance can be both. That does raise an issue for races that have strong poison RRs, and in my notes I've got "outs" for this similar to the sneaky-elf fix for their SD penalty. Some races have auxiliary herbs they use to lower their resistance before they take a healing herb, for example. Dwarves use special crystals, halflings have the will-power to choose to drop their poison RR bonus when knowingly ingesting an herb.

[EltonJ]

I'm confused about the different poisons.

[rdanhenry]

I'm confused about the different poisons.

That's too vague to respond to helpfully. What about them are you finding confusing?