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Offline DangerMan

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Campaign progression - general Q
« on: August 31, 2010, 07:17:41 AM »
I've been pondering some issues lately, concerning campaign progression, and would like to know what you guys think on the subject.

By campaign progression I mean the following:

- At what level does PCs start?

- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)

- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?

- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?

The obvious answer to all of this is, of course: "what ever suits your world/style/GM". That's not the answer Im looking for. I would simply like to know how you guys do it  :D

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 07:55:47 AM »
I've been pondering some issues lately, concerning campaign progression, and would like to know what you guys think on the subject.

By campaign progression I mean the following:

- At what level does PCs start?
I am different than most, but I believe that for RM PCs should start at a minimum level of 3, more likely 5.
- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)
I don't tend to hand out XP (I use in game bennies to reward excellent play, interaction, etc..) and just level everyone up after a certain number of sessions (3-4, sometimes 5) that the PLAYER shows up for.

i have to get back to work now (damn capitalism!!  :D >:( :D >:( ) and will give you my answers to them later.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 09:33:15 AM »
- At what level does PCs start?
We (almost) always start at level one. But for an epic campaign it might be useful to start them at a higher level. Also some groups prefer to start at 3rd level or so, so that the PCs are more able at their skills.
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- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)
For an ~6 hr session we usually hand out about 10.000 XP. From what I've heard most others hand out much less, though.
Quote
- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?
We hand out the same amount of XP in such a case.
Quote
- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?
We've never had campaigns that lasted over years and had an epic goal. But the house rules we use, and which you can find on my homepage, contain a section about XP. There you can at least get an impression what amount of XPs we grant for which kind of goals.

Offline Grimburgoth

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 10:26:25 AM »
- At what level does PCs start?

Most of the time we start around level 4 in Rolemaster. I also think this is the bare minimum to start at. Lower level characters wil fail with even easy manuevers.

- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)

We play every week and a session lasts about 4 hours. Most of the time we get around 3000 xp. Or it takes about 3 to 5 nights to reach the next level.

- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?

We never have any PC's that differ in level by more than 1.

- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?

Many of our campaigns (Run by different GM's) have a higher goal. Not allways very epic, but almost always impossible to achieve :) Our campaigns ussually last about 40 game nights and in the end fail because either the GM has no more fun in the campaign or the players don't get it and decide that is time to nuke the campaign. I'm note sure if anyone else has experienced this, but most of our campaigns have a good start, but after about 20 game sessions it tends to wind down and boredom sets in and the is GM alsmost never capable to turn around the events.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 11:59:16 AM »
How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?
Haven't had too much experience in this arena, but I think I would have them progress a little slower.

Quote
- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?
I almost aways want some sort of "big picture" for my games, maybe not "epic" but generally more important than having the campaign be about saving a single village. Though, I too, have not had multi-year long campaigns - at least not in the last 15+ years of gaming. All of my groups tend to jump games or break up after 2-6 months.

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Offline markc

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 12:22:20 PM »
For RMSS and SM:P I start players at 3rd for pure arms and for Arcane professions, 4th for semi's and hybrids, and 5th for pure spell casters.


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Offline DavidKlecker

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 01:19:58 PM »
If I were to create a new RM campaign, I would start people pretty much like Mark has above given that level 3 spell casters in RM are useless and a level 5 fighter is almost always more powerful than a mage, that is until you get to the higher levels. Leveling up would happen normally until level 10, then I would wait until everyone reached level 10 and then again I would level up normally. By leveling up normally I usually award a level per night (we tend to game all day if we do, not a few hours here or there). My campaigns always have an epic goal in which I have plenty of side stories along the way. I love to model my campaigns after a television series so to speak.

Offline pastaav

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 01:40:02 PM »
I start players at level 2 and reward them with 10000 exp for every attended 10 hours play. Fulfilled goals will give a exp boost.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 03:00:56 PM »
- At what level does PCs start?
Generally 5-6.

Quote
- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)

- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?
I gave XPs by the month. How many a character gains depends on his level, his accomplishments and the events he faced during the month. Technically speaking, I have XPs progression charts that depends on a character's level, how "epic" the events he faces and how "heroic" or clever he acts when confronted to them.

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- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"?
Usually, yes.

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If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve?
Apparently, nigh impossible if you consider that in over two decades of GMing, I never was able to complete any campaign. It's true that my campaigns tend to mix geo-political, religious, economical and social considerations so the team needs pretty much to excel in all of them (generally speaking, as it includes being able to get the right allies and friends --and that pretty much always include having the right deities on your side) in order to progress in any way.

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If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal?
My longest campaign ended after eight years of 30 hours of weekly play, with the players completing about 20% of the goal... I create shorter campaigns from then, though the second latest ended after five years of 10 hours of weekly play with the players completing about 30% of the goal, and the very latest after 8 months of 6 hours of weekly play with the players completing about 5% of the goal. It was also the shortest campaign I ever wrote. >_<
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 03:38:18 PM »
A lot depends on the feel you want, if you want your adventurers as newly hatched adventurer chicks, use level 1, just don't stomp on them. . .if you want fairly robust field adventurers, the above suggestions around 3-6th are usually good. . .for outright hero from day 1, try 10-15.
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Offline VladD

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 04:14:13 PM »
I have been playing campaigns for many years, in several systems. Many of my players stay on the groups for as long as possible and I tend to design my campaigns to run for multiple years, with the longest running campaign surviving 3 revisions of a magicians of the shore game, or 7 years.

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- At what level does PCs start?

Depending on the starting scale I always aim to start at lvl 1. Slaying those rats and burning the skellies always is a hit. On some occasions I like to start off with a little more development; when the PCs are supposed to be more professional and capable.

Quote
- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)

I find that the leveling rate depends on the level they are at. The higher the level, the longer it generally takes. Nowadays I have a sort of an achievement vs level schema: I lay down an adventure and when they solve it, they get another level. Sometimes they don't succeed or they stray from the path and I lay down a similar goal.

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- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different levels? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?

It seems rather unfair to have such a huge level difference in a single campaign. Unless there is some sort of Roleplaying reason for the level difference, I'd say its out of order.
I see how, when the XP per session is (reasonably) equal for each player, the system makes the level difference go away slowly, since the XP cost per level is increasing, but that is only when the difference isn't a glaring 5 levels.
The unfairness is apparent mostly in the XP rewards for actions: the higher lvl character is getting in more E crit rewards and also makes those higher difficulty maneuvers more easily, raking in much more XP than the lower levels.

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- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?

All my campaigns have an epic goal; even when the players don't think it does. I tend to plan out stories for the group and most players individually. Although I run a "rail road" campaign, there are plenty of detours and off rail sessions to disguise that fact. It is VERY rewarding to see your plans come to fruition after carefully constructing the road to the campaign's end and hear the players suddenly realize that all those "rail road" sessions actually connect.
We're playing once every 2 weeks a 12 hour session and my longest campaign ran for close to 7 years, but it never even reached the end phase.  One campaign which did was also great fun AND a great matter of pride amongst my players who recount the many tales to the newer players. This campaign ran for 2 years and I rail roaded it very much, by giving very clear hints at the end of each adventure (goal) where to go next, such as maps on adventure bosses, fleeing enemies or tales by wizened old crones. The absolute crux of the campaign was that I wanted them to fight a Terrasque: the most terrible monster of a rival RPG. So I leveled the players up and in the meantime I arranged for them to find, create, or buy the tools they needed. When the Terrasque surfaced they were in utter horror and they nearly failed (even though they had read its stats PLENTY of times), but their damage capacity in the end prevailed. Afterwards we thought up another campaign which ended in party wipe in just under 10 sessions... C'est la mort!

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Offline Old Man

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 08:54:00 PM »
I've been pondering some issues lately, concerning campaign progression, and would like to know what you guys think on the subject.

By campaign progression I mean the following:

- At what level does PCs start?

My early campaigns started folk at level 1. The current campaign started at level 5. New PCs are added at one level below the last PC added (so we have 7-9s in game currently).

- How fast do they level / how much XP do they get on an average night? (this Q is of particular interest, as I know from other threads most do not use the RAW on XP)

The current campaign is XP-less per se. I give a level once a major part of the plot (see below) has completed. The PCs have completed four parts so far, hence the highest PC being level 9.

- How do you handle XP and characters which are on different leves? If you have a level 5 PC and a level 10 PC, do they get the same amount of XP, given that their accomplishments/roleplaying/ideas are the same?

See above, basically yes.

- Does the campaign have an "epic goal"? If yes, how hard is it usually to achieve? If achieved how many sessions/years - or what ever - does it take to reach the goal? If achieved, then what?

THis campaign does - the defeat of five minions of Melkor, Lord of Darkness. The minions are increasingly harder to defeat. Eventually length of the campaign is unknown (it is a PBEM hence slow) but has been going for 6 years now.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 06:01:57 AM »
All of you people talking about your multi-year campaigns makes me want to cry.   :'( The longest campaign I was ever in lasted just over a year and it was when I was around 12 - 13 years old, and I went from a Level-1 fighter to a Level-8 fighter. (I will not say when that was.)
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 07:41:01 AM »
Come again? 10.000XP a session? A level each session? 1000XP pr hour played? Any openings at any of these tables?!? We usually get/give out half of this, or less.

Right now we're playing a campaign with a seriously epic goal. It's been going on for somewhere between one and two years. PCs started at lvl 1. Only two survivors of the original group of five PCs. They are lvl 9 now. This is the farthest we've ever gotten. Usually we have a TPK when PCs are around lvl 5-6.. :micro:
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 08:10:31 AM »
Usually we have a TPK when PCs are around lvl 5-6.. :micro:

Personally I feel that lvl 5-6 seldom has the needed skills to survive when the story heats up. Our gaming group usually want the players doing stuff like in movies...and if you want to combine this with well rounded characters then you need more levels before the characters become competent.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 10:10:18 AM »
All of you people talking about your multi-year campaigns makes me want to cry.   :'( The longest campaign I was ever in lasted just over a year and it was when I was around 12 - 13 years old, and I went from a Level-1 fighter to a Level-8 fighter. (I will not say when that was.)
OTOH you perhaps noticed that almost none of these multi-year campaigns was ever successfully finished...
From my experience it is easier to run and finish a campaign that is "only" designed to run a few months.
Come again? 10.000XP a session? A level each session? 1000XP pr hour played? Any openings at any of these tables?!? We usually get/give out half of this, or less.
If that suits you that is fine. If others hand out more (or less) XP that's also fine, if everyone in the groups feels the progression is OK.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 10:55:29 AM »
OTOH you perhaps noticed that almost none of these multi-year campaigns was ever successfully finished...
From my experience it is easier to run and finish a campaign that is "only" designed to run a few months.
I believe that is mostly due to the extreme far reaching ideals of the storylines as opposed to the duration of the campaign (at least that is what it sounded like to me when I read them). I would still love to be in a campaign that lasted 2-3 years and got my character to a decent level. Barring that: STOP STARTING EVERYTHING AT 1ST LEVEL!!! WE WILL NEVER GET TO EVEN 10TH LEVEL THAT WAY!!! (Sorry, yelling rant over. This is a big sticking point with me these days.)
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Offline Defendi

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 11:16:36 AM »
I usually start at 1st level unless I have a reason not to, as with the Moving Shadow, where we started at 3rd.  On a side note, the D&D playtest for that is in the last adventure, so we'll soon be reaching the ending after 2.5 years or so.  The RM playtest (that was first for the actual moving shadow campaign, although it was pioneered in HERO) is between adventure 7 and 8 right now, so it will take longer, but we do stuff between each adventure and we had a long pause between 6 and 7.
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Offline Fornitus

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 02:50:50 AM »
As GM I generally do a single solo adventure with each PC befrore the characters get together on game night. This gives each a different background and outlook for their character. This is generally a 'zero' level adventure or first level scenario. The group ALWAYS starts at level 1. Its up to them to not be stupid and get killed. New players learn after a character or two. ;D

My players level as I feel appropriate without keeping track of exp. generally we game once a week for 6 or 7 hours. If they are getting somewhere they level about every 10 sessions or so. This requires them to THINK and not just depend on a skill and a dice roll. They need to bias all attempts as much as they can.

In all our campaigns there is an epic set of goals. The players get to decide which side they are on or go do something else and just get affected by the repercussions as they pass. The majority of the campaign is really about the PCs figuring out what is going on before they can direct their efforts. No evil PCs monologuing  the grand plan. Those idiots got killed by their masters......,. ;D

Most of my campaigns have lasted a couple years or so. some dont fly right but the last one went on for 5 years. They retired at 15th level or so.  8)

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Offline pemerton

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Re: Campaign progression - general Q
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 03:36:16 AM »
I've run two Rolemaster campaigns. The first ran from 1990 - 1997, the second 1998-2008. In both cases the campaigns began at level 1 and ended with the PCs in the mid-20s. The first ended when the players nuked it (play had more or less ground to a halt with the PCs stuck inside a prison plane based on Gethaena). The second ended with a big finish combining aspects of Bastion of Souls (3E D&D module), the Sundered Star (a world in Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways) and related victories vs demons and voidal foes.

We never had big level gaps in our parties - new PCs were always introduced at the same level or a level below, with comparable treasure. Initially I used the Character & Campaign Law XP rules, but at some point (can't remember when - maybe in the transition between campaigns) started using a goal-based XP variant from the Guild Companion (I can't remember the number or the author). I found that, playing weekly, it took about a year to reach 5th level, another year to reach 10th, another year to reach 15th, and that after that things slowed down quite a bit - not so much because of the increased XP requirements, but because play slowed down a lot given the complexity of both PCs and evolving plot.