Author Topic: Revised Profession: Summoner  (Read 1857 times)

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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2022, 06:44:00 PM »
"Except for a small minority with interdimensional travel abilities of their own, demons can
only come to a human world by being summoned, in which case the default case is that the demon can
only stay a number of minutes equal to its own level before it is dragged back to its own plane by cosmic
energies, or perhaps through some curse of a protective god. Various spells can allow the demon a
longer stay." -- Beta Spell Law, p. 420.

Note that it is *not the summoning spell that sends the demon home*, so there is no implication that it is held by spell in any way, so Dispel will not work during the demon's normal stay. If it is on time extended by some spell, then a Dispel of that spell would end that extension. Whether the minute/level limit starts to apply then or whether it goes immediately home is perhaps less clear. I'd probably rule the former, just for additional tension.
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Online jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2022, 07:11:41 PM »
Hmm. That text is still there. It's a reasonable interpretation but in that case it would be better if summons were not duration spells (although that's a clarity issue too), and it also doesn't handle other types of creatures, e.g. natural animals.

We could in principle put something about this in the section on durations, which already talks about what you can and can't dispel.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2022, 08:31:35 PM »
For the purposes of this take on Summoning, I’m approaching it as summoning spells create a temporary link or wormhole from another location, pulling the creature through. Once the spell expires (or is canceled), that link is closed and the creature is pulled back “home”. At least for my understanding, this is essentially how RMU summoning works already, in which case, the need for a creature to be able to return isn’t required, as the original summoning spell does the returning by closing the link.

The metaphysics of how this actually works may vary according to setting, but that was my interpretation at least, and I’ve designed my version of the spells from that philosophy.

It does open up a lot of questions about it the nature of banishment. As I stated above, I think a Cancel spell would ultimately have the same effect. But what about if we come across a free-roaming demon on our Prime plane? In the case of demons/celestials/elementals/etc, banishing spells could be quite useful because they are used on creatures not of this plane to return them to their plane of origin. In that case, I can see the need to put them into a list of their own, along with some other spells (perhaps my Warding circles) because it becomes a useful tool that a Summoner may wish to develop. Banishment doesn’t seem by the definition to work on creatures of this plane though, so if you summon a unicorn, you would have to cancel the spell creating the summoning link, as banishment wouldn’t be an option.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2022, 10:51:02 PM »
@rdanhenry - I missed your response before I posted, but yes that text seems to counter my interpretation. Personally, I find that description from Spell Law Beta really problematic... it's feels like it's handwaving explanations for why demons get called back to their plane of origin, rather than establishing a clean mechanic that applies to all manner of summoning.

As @Vladimir and others have pointed out, there are so many schools of thought and each of us probably has a different notion of the metaphysics. I tend to think of there being two types of summoning in my vision of magic in the RMU world, or at least the setting I think I want to set my games in:
  • Summoning spells, which create the tether/wormhole that pulls the creature back through (and simplifies the mechanics in my opinion).
  • Creating gates, stable bridges between planes that creatures can travel through without the tether that essentially yanks them back at the end of the spell. This would be how a demon would be able to reside on our plane in a permanent manner, until forced through another gate or banished.
These concepts may not fit RMU as the rules are written, but they seem much cleaner to me than "vague cosmic energies" pulling demons back, but not elementals. No offense intended to the author of those lines, that explanation just seems awkward for my own game vision.

The idea of summoning spells creating tethers actually works well if Summoners are going to build any sort of relationship with summoned entities over time. My Component spells allow you to call specific creatures. This seems like an interesting plot hook intrinsic to the profession: In the case of a demon, perhaps the caster is providing what every summoned demon seems to want on our plane based on descriptions in past works — time to wreck havoc and opportunities to return to the Prime plane. A GM could have a lot of fun with this double-edged sword.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2022, 12:55:55 AM »
I must admit I prefer the RMSS version of summoning, where summoning brings a planar entity temporarily and a control or master spell anchors the summons.

I must also admit that I up the ante a bit with those - the entity indeed leaves if the control or master spell is not cast, but if the spell is cast but fails or is resisted, then the entity does *not* leave unless it wants to - it can stay and attacks its summoner, or stay and lay waste to the place, or leave the place of summoning and go wreak havoc somewhere else unless proper containment measures have been set.

The difference between summons and gates being that the gate is not limited to a single entity, and opens both ways. Basically, a summons targets a being, a gate targets a place.

I also thing that something is missing in planar summoning (which is very prevalent in lore), and that is bargaining. Plus containment and protection.

Basically, I would like planar summoning lists to include the following kind of spells
- actual summoning spell
- containment spell. Ideally, does not require concentration (the caster will need it for other activities), but drains PP so that it cannot be maintained for long unless the caster has taken the extra precaution of setting up a power matrix to power up the containment spell.
- protection spell to protect the caster against nonphysical assaults from the entity
- influence spell to make the entity more amenable to a deal
- control and mastery spells.

The actual bargain obviously requiring knowledge about the specific entity the caster summons, as well as proper bargaining skills.

Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2022, 06:46:22 AM »
@MisterK - While for Natural Summons spells, control is granted with the casting of the spell, in my Planar Summons list, you do need to cast a separate spell (Control Entity) to control anything summoned on that list. My rationale for the difference between this and the typical summoning process for extraplanar creatures (circle -> summon -> control) is that Summoner profession can bypass that extra step of requiring a circle. I don’t mind this because I see their magic as operating in a slightly different manner, but of course that’s why I’m reaching out to all of you – for help with the play balance.

Note that on the RAW Demonic Summons list in beta that the circle is really optional. A demon takes two rounds to appear, and you can cast Control in that time, (unless I’m mistaken). The circle is essentially a fallback plan and a chance to establish some rapport. My Warding Circle spells perform a similar functions.

This discussion though does open up a new can of worms: should control be different for intelligent creatures vs intelligent ones? Natural Summons has spells that can summon a bear or a unicorn. Should there have to be separate control spells for the unicorn? Likewise the intelligence of elementals and demons are sometimes depicted differently. Lesser elementals are sometimes depicted as more animalistic. I’m not sure how that’s changed in RMU yet, but it does raise a question of whether intelligence should play a factor in whether the creature is automatically controlled.
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Offline netbat

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2022, 05:41:43 PM »
This is one thing that has always bothered me about RM. I can see the summoner calling animals to him on the spot, although I think is should take longer for the animals to get to him under their own movement. But I can't think of any fiction/fantasy story where a summoner just says "I think I need to summon a demon/elemental/angel" and bamn 30 seconds of chanting later there you go. All the stories I remember sound much more like ritual magic, with hours of painstaking preparation/chanting/bargaining etc before the summoned creature is available for use.
Maybe using spell lists for summoning should just be for calling a previously summoned and bound being to your presence?
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Online jdale

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2022, 07:06:09 PM »
Conversely, if you look at RPG-style computer games or anime, instant summoning is super common.

A dependence on ritual summoning requires a lot more definition of how ritual works, which is an area that leaves a lot of choices to the GM and some aren't going to want to deal with it at all. So that seems problematic.
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Offline B Hanson

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2022, 04:11:58 PM »
I think one of the issues is trying to shoe-horn certain spell lists into the standard spell casting mechanic. Alchemy spells had to add a layer of processes by requiring casting the spell daily for weeks or even months. Circles have time parameters for drawing the circle itself. I ended up expanding spell lists into 7 categories from the original 3, driven by the mechanics needed for casting.

As far as Summoning, we discussed this over at the RMBlog:

https://www.rolemasterblog.com/rolemaster-spell-law-deconstructed-summoning/
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2022, 08:49:21 AM »
This discussion though does open up a new can of worms: should control be different for intelligent creatures vs intelligent ones? Natural Summons has spells that can summon a bear or a unicorn. Should there have to be separate control spells for the unicorn? Likewise the intelligence of elementals and demons are sometimes depicted differently. Lesser elementals are sometimes depicted as more animalistic. I’m not sure how that’s changed in RMU yet, but it does raise a question of whether intelligence should play a factor in whether the creature is automatically controlled.
  In a favorite series of fictional novels there is a short story where a Paladin and his party is hunting a wanted criminal. The party's magic user summons a demon, taking hours to draw out the summoning circle which is within a circle of binding to keep the demon enclosed. When the demon appears, he isn't very happy and the MU starts to negotiate terms of service. The demon knows the target and claims that he isn't strong enough, and suggests that the caster summon a stronger demon. The MU laughs and replies a stronger demon would be much harder to control under the crude conditions. During the negotiations, the man they are hunting sneaks into the area while the party is distracted by the demon and he casts a spear. The Paladin shouts for somebody to protect the MU but the spear isn't even close -It strikes the ground and the tip cuts a groove in the circle of binding. The demon is overjoyed and wraps his arms about the MU, who screams in terror. "We'll see who is master now!" The demon and mage disappear with a thunderous crash.

  A GM does have to set a number of metaphysical laws before allowing Summoners. Depending on your reference sources, beings from outside of the Material Plane usually don't like to enter the Material Plane for various reasons. In a couple of stories, demons are terrified of dying on the Material Plane but no reasons are given, hence they will only spend a set, negotiated time to complete a defined task and will attempt to pervert the wording to go home ASAP.
  Controlling animals is one thing but I consider intelligent beings a totally different matter -You have to convince them or pay them for their time in a Plane they don't like and they may be in a bad mood for being called in the first place.

Imagine, if you will, a player being summoned just as he was to sit down for a favorite dinner with friends. Pouf! All of a sudden, he's on another continent, and there's a blizzard outside... The caster (holding his "Summoning for Idiots" book) has X amount of time to convince the player to stay and complete a task. I, for one, don't give freebies -My time is worth something, at double overtime rates.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2022, 10:44:24 AM »
Imagine, if you will, a player being summoned just as he was to sit down for a favorite dinner with friends. Pouf! All of a sudden, he's on another continent, and there's a blizzard outside...
*that's* something I would like to do at least once in a campaign. I mean, why should summoning work only on outsider entities ? If there is a spell that compels entities to do the summoner's bidding, there *must* be a spell to compel PCs to do the summoner's bidding. And being summoned by a demon for some task sure promises hours upon hours of fun - half of them being spent by the players to try and obey the letter of the command while subverting its spirit... which is probably exactly what the summoning demon expects and has planned for (real-life experience speaks).

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2022, 01:10:16 PM »
*that's* something I would like to do at least once in a campaign. I mean, why should summoning work only on outsider entities ? If there is a spell that compels entities to do the summoner's bidding, there *must* be a spell to compel PCs to do the summoner's bidding. And being summoned by a demon for some task sure promises hours upon hours of fun - half of them being spent by the players to try and obey the letter of the command while subverting its spirit... which is probably exactly what the summoning demon expects and has planned for (real-life experience speaks).
  This is a common RPG plot where I'm from (Hawaii, where 60% of the population is Asian) and is a very popular Anime sub-genre (Isekai, or "other world").
  I've pulled a Wehrmacht squad out of Stalingrad to fight in a fantasy campaign, had a group play themselves in the 1683 Siege of Vienna, and many others. I'm currently in a SW campaign where my MERP party has been summoned to execute a (yet to be determined) mission. In the meantime, the party is learning languages and local culture, my character is studying military history as he aims to found an empire.
  In another campaign, my character was summoned by a demon to serve him for 20 years (I played a Lich) and was rewarded with some experience, magic items and very powerful spells for my time.

  The Anime series "How A Realist Hero Rebuilt The Kingdom" a Japanese college student was summoned to save a kingdom in trouble. So, a "Hero Summoning" spell would have certain criteria based upon need. The kingdom in question wouldn't be saved by Hercules or Conan, they needed a thinker.
 
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2022, 03:13:58 PM »

Quote
This is one thing that has always bothered me about RM. I can see the summoner calling animals to him on the spot, although I think is should take longer for the animals to get to him under their own movement. But I can't think of any fiction/fantasy story where a summoner just says "I think I need to summon a demon/elemental/angel" and bamn 30 seconds of chanting later there you go
@netbat, you're not wrong... a great deal of fantasy literature depicts the exhaustive nature of summoning magic — time required, ritual components, negotiating the terms, etc. That being said, this is part of my issue with so many depictions of the Summoner: playability. As MisterK said in another post in reference to playing a Healer, "unless being a healer is as much fun as being any other class, you have a design issue." This is at the core of my trying to make a Summoner more desirable to play.

In regards to the examples of shorter time in summoning spells, as Jdale notes:
Quote
...if you look at RPG-style computer games or anime, instant summoning is super common.
The Final Fantasy series is the most obvious example, but there are plenty of others. In fact, I think this makes the class far more fun, and it still comes at a cost. A 5th level Mage can cast bolt spells every round. While a Summoner is busy gating in a bear or a wolf and sacrificing concentration each round, the Mage is delivering damage and directly affecting the battlefield. Obviously there are utility issues to consider, but RMU's current ruleset treats summoning as a fairly quick process and my rules make it a bit more powerful, but at a heavy trade of PPs and/or time expended.

@Vlad, solid points as well... I really like the idea that more powerful entities, especially intelligent ones, require bartering for their services. I just don't know how well that fits into the models above without some additional mechanics (which I'm trying to avoid).

RMSS seems to have tried to combine Summoning magic with a set skill: Summoning, meaning that you needed to invest DP into being able to summon the appropriate entities. It's certainly a way to go, although I'm trying to avoid yet another DP sink for characters.
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Offline Eladan

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2022, 03:17:20 PM »
Quote
I think one of the issues is trying to shoe-horn certain spell lists into the standard spell casting mechanic.
@B Hanson, that's certainly the issue I'm running up against, although I do think that having some sort of universal system in place for various types of spells is a good thing that promotes streamlining magic. Your magic categories are an excellent concept, I just am hesitant to revamp the entire system again because of one spell type. Long term, that's the plan of course... which is already partially addressed in my Spheres of Magic system.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Revised Profession: Summoner
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2022, 06:41:07 PM »

@Vlad, solid points as well... I really like the idea that more powerful entities, especially intelligent ones, require bartering for their services. I just don't know how well that fits into the models above without some additional mechanics (which I'm trying to avoid).

RMSS seems to have tried to combine Summoning magic with a set skill: Summoning, meaning that you needed to invest DP into being able to summon the appropriate entities. It's certainly a way to go, although I'm trying to avoid yet another DP sink for characters.
 
  Summoning is a very specialized class. A Summoner could probably snap his fingers and conjure rabbits and doves all day but unless you are serving stew and squab, the practicality is limited. A cast fireball is a tactical weapon that might harm a squad, while summoning a demon or dragon is producing a strategic weapon that could crush an army. Do you really want a spellcaster snapping his fingers and popping in a demon or dragon every round? A nuke should cost more than a grenade and be far more complicated to make.

  Isekai storylines work for the Japanese because culturally, the Japanese tend to obey authority so summoned people (including whole classrooms of children) tend to follow orders. There are few exceptions, such as in The Rise of the Shield Hero where summoned heroes were killed for refusing to comply. In another series, Arifureta: From Commonplace to World's Strongest, a high school classroom, including the teacher are summoned to be heroes and undergo training as fighters and magic users to fight demons. The hero is attacked by a jealous classmate during a battle and the hero wakes up many levels deeper in the dungeon. He survives, even though he's a weak support mage, he increases his power and clears the dungeon. He then decides to strike off on his own and the church that summoned him declares him a heretic for slipping their leash. 

  Summoning is more in the realm of ritual magic, which requires meticulous pre-casting planning and protections, especially when attempting to summon powerful, potentially hostile beings. I don't see how summoning gives the caster automatic control or even influence. At best, I'd allow a random reaction table prior to negotiations. I realize you are trying to make this simple but gating in an intelligent being that may even be more intelligent than a human should not be simple. Summoning a dragon would be like encountering one in the wild, but with protections up just in case you have to send it back. Such a summon should neither be cheap nor easy or it would be commonplace.

  Last example from Anime... She Professed Herself Pupil of the Wise Man. This series is about a Summoner...but he's the most powerful wizard in he world, so he does snap his fingers and drops strategic level demons on the battlefield... This is a bizarre MMO-based series where a veteran player who took a few years off from playing restarts his old, legendary character and while redesigning his avatar, falls asleep at the keyboard and wakes up as a teenaged girl...with godlike powers, able to summon Valkyries and giant, demonic knights. The character is so high in level that it can melee with demons and beat them, so not a very good measure of your average Summoner, but how many specialists in summoning are there? The complication is that the character is unable to log off from the MMO so it is sort of an Isekai theme.
When the Master governs, the people
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