Topic: problem with herbs' prices & descriptions

[naphta23]

First of all: thanks a lot for reading and answering!

Although I've used the search-function for a while, I could not find another thread that seemed to answer my problem.

Currently, I am running a campaign (RMFRP) with little and not very powerful magic and without many treasures - you might call it dark & low fantasy, if so inclined.

Since there are not many spellcasters, even weak ones, there is a relatively big need for herbs, which should be expected. No problem there. The problem arises with the lack of currency: the group has not much money but can consider itself pretty wealthy, even if they possess about "only" 200 gold pieces.

I guess you see the problem: with 200 gold pieces the group is definitely pretty wealthy in that campaign, but the herbs' prices do not fit. If a single dose of Baalak, for example, costs about 160 gold pieces, the monetary system is pretty messed up, if you ask me. Consider the price of a single broadsword, which costs about 10 sp ("... and a 10-foot pole") and then look at the price list of the herbs in the various RMFRP-books again.

Am I wrong here, did I miss something? Or are those herbs too over the top to be found on a relatively regular basis? I would like to have some opinions concerning the prices and the frequency of the herbs. Can someone please provide me with a list of herbs that are not so extremely expensive, even if this means that they are not as effective?

And something completely different - in my campaign there are some pretty messed-up jerks (NPC) that use weapons that are rusty or covered with excrements. Can somebody provide me with some thoughts and rules for bloodpoisoning?

As written above: thanks a lot for your help! 

[Athelstaine]

I run low powered games as well. One of the things i do and our other Gm does as well, is to drop all the prices down ONE denomination. [i.e. 1 GP is now 1 SP]. It works pretty well for us. So 200 GP in your game would be really alot in our games.

 As for the blood poisoning, hard to say. I treat all players regardless of level as level one v/s poisons and disease. Even a level 40 Conan can get the common cold. So with out really researching blood poisoning i would treat it as a level 1 poison attack with mods depending on situation.

[yammahoper]

the herb prices are messed up.  For a game with ample cash, reduce all prices to a silver standard.  For a low power game with tight economy, you might want to reduce the prices to bp standard.

A typical peasent will make just over 2gp a year.  that is 20 sp, or 200 bp.  Buying herbs at even bp standard would be very difficult. 

I think ig you replace gp with bp and sp with cp, you will find the balance you seek.  Of course dont flood the market with to many herbs.  Finding the needed herb should sometimes be its own adventure.

[markc]

 I like the ideas above for prices I also like the idea of older herbs (not as fresh) having less potency so you can reduce their price and cost as well. You can also simply create some new herbs with lesser potency and new names.
  A good idea might be a town that can grow specific herbs and sells them to other regions that cannot grow them. This way they are treated more like a crop than treasure and can increase there occurrence in your game world. I would not have every herb be available this way and maybe have only specially trained (or professions or people with specific spell lists) be able to grow specific herbs or magical herbs. 

 As for books I like the old MERP Hands of the Healer if you can find it as it has lots of good info and herbs but it will suffer from the problems you have talked about above.


 As for blood poisoning I cannot think of anything right now but I might treat it like a poison. I do not have a good idea of a "level" but I would look up some real world data or ask a health care professional to see if they could provide some help.


MDC

[naphta23]

First of all: thanks for the answers.

My mistake: the group has only about 20 gp plus gems, but that is still pretty rich. Almost next to awesomely rich.

The comments concerning the price list were very helpful, I guess I have to sit down and work that out, somehow. Is there any possibility that some other persons would help with that and perhaps create an article for the guild companion? 

Well, as to blood poisoning, I guess I have to start looking or asking around for it. 

Athelstaine, thank you very much for the comment about the disease- and poison-RR! I wanted to houserule that, but forgot this rule - have to change that as soon as possible.

[arakish]

I know I am little late here, but here is an idea I used to adjust the prices of herbs.

Although they are spices, you could simply double or triple the prices listed on the shelf.  Go to the grocery store and look at the prices for spices.  Most often, the bottles have about 28 57 grams (1 to 2 ounces) of spice in a bottle.  Of course, this is widely variable depending upon how ground the spice is.  Most often, the price for these spices range from $1.89 to $4.29.  Doubling gives us $3.78 to $8.58, while tripling gives us $5.67 to $12.87.  Compared to a minimum wage weekly pay of about $210 (gross; 40 hrs x $5.25), this gives us a ratio of 0.018 to 0.06.  Now with the peasant's average weekly salary of 2bp, this would give us herb prices ranging from 0.036bp to 0.12bp.  This gave me a useful range of prices to adjust herbs.

Since an average dose for an herb is 114 grams (about 4 ounces) IIRC, again doubling the above prices will us the final price range of about 0.07bp to 0.25bp, or 7tp to 25tp.

Of course, an herb's rarity will again further modify this price range, which could easily throw the price up into gold pieces.

And that is the idea I had.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

Since an average dose for an herb is 114 grams (about 4 ounces) IIRC, again doubling the above prices will us the final price range of about 0.07bp to 0.25bp, or 7tp to 25tp.

I consider that part of the problem. I'm no herbalist, so I can't say what "typical" dosage is, but a standard tea bag holds 2-3 grams or so. This suggests to me that "an average dose" for a lot of them should be closer to a tenth of an ounce than 4 ounces.

[arakish]

GOF, you posted while I was looking for dosage info.  Cool.

I do know one thing: It takes a lot less of an herb to flavor something than it does to get the medicinal benefits.  A good example: It only takes about 15µg of Cayenne Pepper to season a single meal (provided all you want is a little spice and mostly flavor, instead of blistering), but to get the medicinal benefits of capsaicin in cayenne pepper, one would need to take about 150mg of cayenne pepper each day.  That is 10,000 times the amount to simply season a single meal.

According to the Equipment Lists in Gamemaster Law, pg 106, (verbatim) "The effect is based on a dose weighing approximately half an ounce."

However, doing research on several different medicinal herbal sites, the actual size of the dose can vary greatly.  With some herbs, the potency is so great, a single tiny leaf brewed in 8 ounces of water is sufficient.  With other herbs, it could take as many as eight large leaves brewed in 8 ounces of water.

The same goes for the other methods such as ingestion, paste, apply, etc.  It would all depend on the potency of the herb.  However, I would hate to go through each and every herb and have to list the amount also.

I think sticking with the GL amount of half an ounce works.  That would mean grocery store spice jars hold 2, 3, or 4 doses.  Thus, if you use the idea I posted above, simply adjust the prices as seen fit.  Or just use the price for each dose being 7tp to 25tp and adjust for rarity.

Anyway, the initial post was right.  The prices listed on the Equipment Lists are atrocious.  You'd think they got the price ideas from cocaine, marijuana, et. al. instead of medicinal herbs.  I also tend towards low magic campaigns which means normal folk would rely almost solely on herbs more than magic.

rmfr

[Ecthelion]

Am I wrong here, did I miss something? Or are those herbs too over the top to be found on a relatively regular basis?

It is important to note IMO that the herbs listed in the RM rules are "enchanted" herbs (this way they were also titled until and including RM2) and not mundane herbs as in our world. And that is also the reason for the high prices. So these are not "messed up" but perfectly in line with prices of other enchanted goods like magical swords or so.

Personally I think that you may use the given RM herb list as it is. The effect would of course be that only very few of these herbs will ever be used by the PCs (they are magical stuff, after all), namely those few which cost only a few silver pieces. But that IMO fits nicely into a world "dark & low fantasy". The PCs would have to learn ordinary healing, i.e. skills such as first aid.

Can someone please provide me with a list of herbs that are not so extremely expensive, even if this means that they are not as effective?

Wikipedia has a list of plants used as medicine and an article about Chinese herbology that has such a list. Of course both don't include RM prices  , so this task would be up to you.

[Athelstaine]

First of all: thanks for the answers.

My mistake: the group has only about 20 gp plus gems, but that is still pretty rich. Almost next to awesomely rich.

The comments concerning the price list were very helpful, I guess I have to sit down and work that out, somehow. Is there any possibility that some other persons would help with that and perhaps create an article for the guild companion? 

Well, as to blood poisoning, I guess I have to start looking or asking around for it. 

Athelstaine, thank you very much for the comment about the disease- and poison-RR! I wanted to houserule that, but forgot this rule - have to change that as soon as possible.

No problem . Glad to be of any help.

[naphta23]

Sorry to repeat myself, but: thanks a lot for the many and very helpful answers! 

[GrumpyOldFart]

I do know one thing: It takes a lot less of an herb to flavor something than it does to get the medicinal benefits.

Another thing that will affect dosage by weight is freshness. Herbs that are picked that morning and sold fresh will weigh a lot more per given volume than dried herbs, since they still contain so much water.

[Jacinto Pat]

Unless the herb is for a common problem, I think the issue would be less one of "price" than of "finding it fast enough to matter".  If you show up at a herbalists shop asking for something to prevent the development of lycanthropy the herbalist is going to know you're desperate and charge you accordingly -- even if the herb is a weed growing in their backyard. 

[Ynglaur]

A couple points...
1. Be careful about using modern economics--such as the minimum wage--to baseline costs for a fantasy setting.  Most people in the pre-Industrial West were dirt poor.  Want to see dirt poor today?  Try Southwest or Southern Asia.  People in the U.S. on minimum wage are very wealthy by comparison.
2. Herb cost should in general give one an idea of availability.  If something is 160gp a dose, probably only wealthy merchants, nobility, or other wealthy groups could afford it.  It's far to rich for the likes of some scraggly adventurers.    If you want such things more available to the common many, or at least the middle classes, then by all means drop the price.
3. Herbs and spices--especially exotic ones--were very expensive in the ancient world.  There's a reason it was said a stout man could make his life's fortune on one trip to the East.

[yammahoper]

160gp takes it out of the reach of the nobility too.  Unless of course you use the base magic item price and assume the world swims in a river of gold pieces.

RM economics make sense until magic and herb cost are applied.  Castle and Ruins has great information.  There certainly was no minimum wage (CnR assumes the average peasent lived at a substinance level and produced/earned about 8cp a day, not in actual coin, but labor).

A sp econoy makes more sense when applied to the cost of herbs and magic.  Otherwise, using the prices a rules to calculate prices provided in Treasure Companion, require a DnD type world were 1 Million GP is no big deal, a fact our real world experience doesnt support...at least not until keynsian economics and fiat money.

[MariusH]

It would really be a helpful tool if someone really dug into medieval economy, took account for the particluars needed in roleplaying, and made an "economy companion" or something. The prices listed here and there today just doesn't seem to be consistent. Take the price of a meal compared to the price of a cow or a pig, for instance. Or the fact that you can live your entire life at an Inn, all meals included, for the price of a decent weapon.

Exploiting the strange inconsistencies in the prices given for various items and services, I expect a player merchant could easily make a fortune.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

As regard to pricing, availability and locality. I tend to use the given gp prices as being those charged in the least available areas and assume that the stuff has been previously enchanted to preserve it in a prepared "easy to use" form (much like a band-aid or potion) or that assumes you are willing to pay that much to get it prepared for you by someone that knows exactly how to get the best results.

The cost of finding stuff in a market and preparing it should be relatively inexpensive for a trained healer, if the herb is also relatively common more so if it was rarer or less portable. I can imagine for example a farmer making a nice sideline from cultivating the growth of certain herbs.. this makes them more available and thus cheaper if more than one farmer did it. The trick is selling it where it doesn't grow. I'm fairly sure drug barons may have been thinking along the same lines.

Money may not grow on trees.. but herbs can make money

 

[RandalThor]

<snip> require a DnD type world were 1 Million GP is no big deal, a fact our real world experience doesnt support...at least not until keynsian economics and fiat money.

Of course, in the RW we don't have an entire race of people who do almost nothing but dig through the Earth mining and excavating homes. Dwarves could explain why a fantasy world has so much more gold, platinum, gems, etc.. than our world. In fact, I think they are likely to become that worlds Switzerland, and have the biggest, most elaborate banks. Perhaps orcs were originally used by the dwarves as guards.

So, when a human noble needs to get some capital to hire mercs because his neighbor is getting itchy bow fingers, they go to the nearest dwarven hold and borrow the funds. Dwarves could also be the key instigators in dragon hunting: how dare those reptiles hoard all that treasure form those it rightly belongs to?!? Time to drop some hints to some silly humans........

[Marc R]

I find economy tends to vary greatly between games, even if all games are played "By the book". . .for some characters, 200gp is lunch money.

I tend to re-balance costs to fit with my game, and often costs will vary wildly from place to place and time to time. . . .

Does that herb have to be taken fresh? Does it grow in the winter? Perhaps in 9 months of the year you can only get it from a greenhouse. . . etc etc.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I wasn't thinking "economy" in terms of money so much as the flow of goods from place to place. It was probably much easier to get Chinese spices in medieval Naples than medieval Bristol, although I doubt there's that much difference between them in terms of available labor force/consumers and available wealth. The actual price... I don't know if it would vary that much, it would be outrageous under the best of circumstances.