Topic: Magical Security – exactly what spells to use in RM??

[C.Tozer]

Hello everyone,

Is the concept of “high-security places often employ magic to enhance their security measures” actually real and if so what RM spells could be used or is it just hand wavy “magic stuff”??

I'm currently grappling with the challenge of setting up an effective magical security system in Rolemaster. Specifically, I'm seeking advice on which spells to use for passive general detection against individuals using magic or being invisible within an area.

In various discussions, including this https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=21044.msg244897#msg244897 forum post, it's been mentioned that “high-security places often employ magic to enhance their security measures”. However, upon reviewing the available RM spells, I find limitations in both the Dispel and Detect spells, particularly in terms of duration and range. These limitations are also mentioned in this https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17566.msg213173#msg213173 post.

For instance, most Detect Invisible spells have a duration of 1 minute per level and can only cover a 5-foot radius at a time. This raises the question of how to implement a continuous detection spell/system.

In your gaming world, what RM spells or spell setups/combination of spells would you recommend to achieve the following effects:

1.   City Gate: Establishing a ward, rune, or similar mechanism for a permanent (or daily cast) "Detect Invisible/Magic/Evil/whatever" or "Dispel Magic."
2.   Wealthy Jeweler’s Stock Room: Installing a detection and alarm spell to silently alert the jeweler and hired guards of intruders.
3.   Magical Bandit’s Lair in a Cave: Preparing for an imminent magical attack with a trigger or spell that activates upon detecting magic at the cave entrance.

I initially expected higher-level casters (8th or 9th and above) to have spells like "Detect XXXX" with longer durations and broader coverage, but I haven't found them. I feel like there is there something obvious I'm missing?

I vaguely recall an article in the "Guild Companion" discussing the social implications of magic, but the website is currently down (any idea when GC may be making a come back BTW?),

Any advice or guidance on this matter would be greatly appreciated! 

Thank you.

[rdanhenry]

What is available is going to depend on the edition of Rolemaster you are looking at. If you specify which, it would be easier to provide specific recommendations.

Symbols are option in every edition, though their availability for commercial use will depend on how religions behave in the setting.

[C.Tozer]

Hi Radanhery

Thanks for the response - any edition except for RMU to be honest.

Just really keen to hear what/all options that could be on offer. In the world concerned all manner of different ways that religions behalf - some are open for their services (ie spells) to be bought and sold - others would not do this.

As mentioned I'm sure I have missed something. Interesting that you mention religion as I would have thought such protections would be more likely to be essence but very keen to hear your thoughts.

Thanks very much 

What is available is going to depend on the edition of Rolemaster you are looking at. If you specify which, it would be easier to provide specific recommendations.

Symbols are option in every edition, though their availability for commercial use will depend on how religions behave in the setting.

[cdcooley]

The closed channeling Symbolic Ways list would certainly be a common way to protect tombs and other religious sites.

The open essence Rune Mastery has Sign spells that could be used for ad hoc, personal use, but really isn't flexible enough for serious strategic use.

Just using the core rules, I would expect the non-religious protection to be handled by an Alchemist. They have the flexibility to embed just about anything into any object.

I've you're looking outside of core rules the Castles & Ruins book is an excellent option. Section 8 has guidelines and suggestions for magical protections and section 33 has some new spell lists.

The Alchemy Companion has a number of new lists and even an Engineer semi-spell casting profession. Although the Engineer lists are about construction rather than protection, the ideas combined behind that profession and other rules and lists provide a framework for protective magic.

The Essence Companion has a Symbolism list for RuneMages similar to the channeling list.

The Rolemaster Companion II also had a RuneMage profession, but its lists were more tactical in nature with non-permanent duration.

There are various other lists scattered through the various companions, but I would expect some subset of the Alchemists in the world to specialize in enchanting structures rather than weapons, armor, and other portable items.

[MisterK]

I would expect most passive magical defences to include wards (structure and perimeter) as a first line. 'Castles and Ruins' includes warding lists, as well as a short discussion about magical defences.

Using symbols would provide additional countermeasures and reactive defences in specific places.

Using Alchemy would be best reserved to craft low-level daily items that sentries can use to either perform routine detection tasks or scan an area where intrusion is suspected.

Then, you have magic-capable staff on-site to deal with intruders.

[C.Tozer]

The closed channeling Symbolic Ways list would certainly be a common way to protect tombs and other religious sites.

The open essence Rune Mastery has Sign spells that could be used for ad hoc, personal use, but really isn't flexible enough for serious strategic use.

Just using the core rules, I would expect the non-religious protection to be handled by an Alchemist. They have the flexibility to embed just about anything into any object.

I've you're looking outside of core rules the Castles & Ruins book is an excellent option. Section 8 has guidelines and suggestions for magical protections and section 33 has some new spell lists.

The Alchemy Companion has a number of new lists and even an Engineer semi-spell casting profession. Although the Engineer lists are about construction rather than protection, the ideas combined behind that profession and other rules and lists provide a framework for protective magic.

The Essence Companion has a Symbolism list for RuneMages similar to the channeling list.

The Rolemaster Companion II also had a RuneMage profession, but its lists were more tactical in nature with non-permanent duration.

There are various other lists scattered through the various companions, but I would expect some subset of the Alchemists in the world to specialize in enchanting structures rather than weapons, armor, and other portable items.

Excellent - thanks very much for taking the time to respond cdcooley. I really appriciate it.

Yes of course! - I should have recalled the ability to embed (either via Symbolic Ways or via an Alchemist) a spell that that then can be triggered. Would work well against someone trying to teleport into a restricted area, use a spell on a door or lock, etc etc. All of these would have very clear, obvious triggers which an embeded spell could then counter.

I guess though in the specific case of an invisible intruder (I think) my original question still stands.
Assuming a ward/symbol/rune etc would trigger DETECT INVISIBLE (5th level, Detecting Ways, Open Essence) the area of effect is only 5' radius - if the area needing protection against say, an invisible assassin, is only a little bigger than 5' you are out of luck! I guess just have more ward/symbol/rune etc I suppose?
Also too with that DETECT INVISIBLE spell the desription is "detects any invisible things; caster can concentrate on a 5' r area" - ie the original caster would need to be present??

Also, and this may be a bit of a foolish question to ask I think, but what is the trigger of that ward/symbol/rune etc? If the actual spell is to determine if that actual spell cast is to Detect Invisibility how does the the ward/symbol/rune get triggered? In other words the invisible person is undected until the embedded spell is cast. (potentially a pendantic, silly question, as after all we are playing a game of make believe!  )

If you happen to know/off the top of your head, exactly what set of spells would you need to set up a signal ward/symbol/rune etc to alert (somehow??) watchmen around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area?

As it happens I do have access to Rolemaster Companion II, Castles & Ruins (I had forgotten what a useful book this is) and Alchemy Companion so all good. I guess I would have thought there should be the ability to protect/alert people of an invisible foe in the core rules (ie from Spell Law).

Again I suspect I'm just being dim and have missed something obvious. Look forward to your thoughts. Thanks

[C.Tozer]

I would expect most passive magical defences to include wards (structure and perimeter) as a first line. 'Castles and Ruins' includes warding lists, as well as a short discussion about magical defences.

Using symbols would provide additional countermeasures and reactive defences in specific places.

Using Alchemy would be best reserved to craft low-level daily items that sentries can use to either perform routine detection tasks or scan an area where intrusion is suspected.

Then, you have magic-capable staff on-site to deal with intruders.

Nice one thanks - I like the idea of low-level daily items. Thanks

Some of my points to cdcooley apply to your respond too

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

If you happen to know/off the top of your head, exactly what set of spells would you need to set up a signal ward/symbol/rune etc to alert (somehow??) watchmen around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area?

Just get a dog. I'm still incredibly annoyed that people consider being invisible as being some kind of incredibly effective way to bypass security. Invisible people still have a weight, so having a system sensitive to weight (e.g. someone walking on it) works. Invisible people still have a smell, so having a system sensitive to smell (…such as a mere dog) works. Invisible people still make noises, so having a system sensitive to noise works. And, in a magical world, invisible people still have a presence and a magical aura, so detecting presence or magical aura works.
Or, you know, just have a closed door, as being invisible doesn't make one able to go through it.

[netbat]

If you happen to know/off the top of your head, exactly what set of spells would you need to set up a signal ward/symbol/rune etc to alert (somehow??) watchmen around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area?

Holy Wards - Alarm Ward I from the treasure companion or Warding Ways - Alarm Ward from EssCo would work. You could also use the Mana Servents - Alarm spell for areas with few authorized individuals, and I think gargoyles from the treasure companion can see invisible and alarm.
I would probably just create a new spell on the Castles and Ruins Perimeter Warding list that acts as the Runemage Alarm Ward spell and fits into the other Perimeter Wards - seems like an appropriate way to do things.

[MisterK]

Just get a dog. I'm still incredibly annoyed that people consider being invisible as being some kind of incredibly effective way to bypass security. Invisible people still have a weight, so having a system sensitive to weight (e.g. someone walking on it) works. Invisible people still have a smell, so having a system sensitive to smell (…such as a mere dog) works. Invisible people still make noises, so having a system sensitive to noise works. And, in a magical world, invisible people still have a presence and a magical aura, so detecting presence or magical aura works.
Or, you know, just have a closed door, as being invisible doesn't make one able to go through it.

Smell detection is a very good counter measure because, most of the time, people do not think about it (humans and most humanoid races are primary sight and secondary hearing). Pressure plates can be avoided with Flight (and the same list allows to bypass most physical barriers with Long Door), and sounds suppressed with Quiet or Silence. For mid-level spell casters or above, having Extensions is very useful. Of course, any Illusionist worth their salt will trump the smell detection with a smell glamour, but Illusionists are typically very good infiltrators

Illusionists are also very good counter-infiltrators, because they can alter the appearance of the landscape to have potential intruders react and make mistakes. The various Terrain spells are particularly effective for long-duration protection. Of course, since you want your guards to function normally, the illusions must be placed in areas where they typically don't patrol, or cover only from a distance.

Obviously, guards should not be aware of where the magical protections are and how to circumvent them - even without mind reading, one of the best infiltration preparation tools is social engineering, and guards are people, too. Now guardian constructs *can* be aware of magical protections, since they will not be interrogated under most circumstances.

[Hurin]

Some Mentalist guards with Presence True (only 9th level spell, and does not cost powerpoints to use) can work wonders too.

[MisterK]

Some Mentalist guards with Presence True (only 9th level spell, and does not cost powerpoints to use) can work wonders too.

I assume that the default is not to have spellcasters as regular guards Presence True is (C), which is an issue. And you will have to rotate your spellcasters at least three, and likely four, times a day, which increases the manpower requirements significantly.

Presence also has a drawback: it does not distinguish  friends from foes, so you can only detect abnormal activity in a location. But I agree that it is a significant early warning spell if the location is suitable.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Smell detection is a very good counter measure because, most of the time, people do not think about it (humans and most humanoid races are primary sight and secondary hearing). Pressure plates can be avoided with Flight (and the same list allows to bypass most physical barriers with Long Door), and sounds suppressed with Quiet or Silence. For mid-level spell casters or above, having Extensions is very useful. Of course, any Illusionist worth their salt will trump the smell detection with a smell glamour, but Illusionists are typically very good infiltrators

Illusionists are also very good counter-infiltrators, because they can alter the appearance of the landscape to have potential intruders react and make mistakes. The various Terrain spells are particularly effective for long-duration protection. Of course, since you want your guards to function normally, the illusions must be placed in areas where they typically don't patrol, or cover only from a distance.

Obviously, guards should not be aware of where the magical protections are and how to circumvent them - even without mind reading, one of the best infiltration preparation tools is social engineering, and guards are people, too. Now guardian constructs *can* be aware of magical protections, since they will not be interrogated under most circumstances.

The question that I quoted was about "around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area", not about finding some ways to absolutely secure a place about every possible kind of threat, regardless of its caster's level. Because, yeah, you could also pretend that if the spellcaster is high-level enough, that won't work.
That, and cost. Sure, you may want to spend millions to protect the royal castle's treasury room, but we're speaking here of a "9' wide & 8' tall city gate", so, really, the guards should just get a dog, trained to detect invisible people.

[jdale]

If a symbol can be triggered by a movement that is not seen (might exceed the "one of the following" restriction), then you wouldn't want to trigger Detect Invisible, it would be better to trigger something like Aura so the target becomes visible (or at least gets tagged). Waiting Illusion can be used similarly, you can attach a Presence sense to it too, although it would need to be recast regularly (unless embedded in an item).

A constant item of Detect Invisible would allow you to monitor a small area (like a gate) relatively continuously. Illusionists in RMSS have Detect Invisible as a 2nd level spell. Whether that's an affordable solution depends on the availability of magic items and the budget, but it's an option.

That said, I suspect that it's generally easier to grant a guard some extra senses and detect invisibility simply by mismatch of senses rather than explicitly detecting invisibility. For example Presence is only a 1st level spell on the right list, so a constant item of Presence is cheaper than one of Detect Invisible. Nature's Awareness is another low-level detection spell that would sense all movement (and the radius is greater).

You could also have a bound creature. E.g. an undead with life sense, a demon with demon sight. Creepier, which could be good or bad.

An alternative approach could be Detect Enemies. The radius for that detection is 50'R.

Another trick would be to create Fog and use spell mastery to shape it into a wall. Anyone passing through the wall would be clearly outlined. (You could do a waterwall too, but people would likely find that annoying.)

[Hurin]

A few well trained Border Collies with constant Presence spells enchanted into their dog collars might be fun.

[rdanhenry]

If you want the city so locked down that a person or two getting through the gate is a big worry, you close the gate. Open it only when there are people you want to allow in and focus your anti-invisibility precautions then. When town gates are busy, anyone trying invisibility is in danger of being bumped (and potentially exposed) or even trampled.

Other ways to enter a walled town: climbing the wall, hiding in the cargo of a loaded wagon, teleportation, flying (and combining that with Invisibility if you want), bribery, tunneling under the wall, magically walking through or removing a bit of the wall, changing shape to something that can come in unsuspected. Those are just a few of the obvious alternatives; creative thinking will turn up more. You aren't going to keep everyone out; you just make it non-trivial to walk in, so you can collect entry fees (and any other fees that are collected at the gate) and do basic security and bureaucracy. Nobody can reasonably expect gate guards to stop an expert spy or someone with similar skills from making it into the city. For those, you have the higher security at sensitive locations.

[C.Tozer]

If you happen to know/off the top of your head, exactly what set of spells would you need to set up a signal ward/symbol/rune etc to alert (somehow??) watchmen around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area?

Just get a dog. I'm still incredibly annoyed that people consider being invisible as being some kind of incredibly effective way to bypass security. Invisible people still have a weight, so having a system sensitive to weight (e.g. someone walking on it) works. Invisible people still have a smell, so having a system sensitive to smell (…such as a mere dog) works. Invisible people still make noises, so having a system sensitive to noise works. And, in a magical world, invisible people still have a presence and a magical aura, so detecting presence or magical aura works.
Or, you know, just have a closed door, as being invisible doesn't make one able to go through it.

Fair call!

[cdcooley]

I think it's a mistake to focus too much on which standard spells can be used to create permanent warding effects for buildings, gates, etc. The "special enchantment" effects alchemists use to create weapons of slaying and various other useful things that aren't standard spells provide the framework for the useful effects you would want when protecting a structure.

Alternately, for your doorway example, I would say that the base effect for the enchantment would be a Waiting Phantasm with a Detect Invisibility merged in as a secondary effect to accomplish the trigger. Monitoring a 9' by 8' gate opening would be no problem even for a standard 5' radius detection spell if you simply enchant the door frame itself. The radius would extend out from all parts of the frame so you would be fully covering the space inside with some overlap to spare. The Phantasm can then alert the guards with whatever effect is desired. And since Waiting Phantasm has a day duration, the gate enchantment doesn't even have to be a constant effect. A daily item would be fine, although you might want it to have more than one activation per day if you think there's a significant chance of more than one attempt per day. (Otherwise you might need to keep the gate closed for the rest of the day after it gets triggered.)

The only real limited factor here should be the expense and time of setting up the protections.

And I just remembered that there's a download here in the TinyPortal Shadow World section that has Warding spells that are very appropriate to what you're trying to do.

https://ironcrown.co.uk/ICEforums/index.php?action=tportal;sa=download;dl=item935

[C.Tozer]

If you happen to know/off the top of your head, exactly what set of spells would you need to set up a signal ward/symbol/rune etc to alert (somehow??) watchmen around a 9' wide & 8' tall city gate that an invisible person is in the area?

Holy Wards - Alarm Ward I from the treasure companion or Warding Ways - Alarm Ward from EssCo would work. You could also use the Mana Servents - Alarm spell for areas with few authorized individuals, and I think gargoyles from the treasure companion can see invisible and alarm.
I would probably just create a new spell on the Castles and Ruins Perimeter Warding list that acts as the Runemage Alarm Ward spell and fits into the other Perimeter Wards - seems like an appropriate way to do things.

Hi there Nebat - Excellent. Thanks very much for answering the question I asked. Much appriciated. So I guess having a Constant Alarm Ward would do the trick thanks. Likely very pricey but could work.

Interesting that other than, prehaps a Constant Detection spell, there isn't something the same as "Alarm Ward" in the core Spell Lore rules. I would have thought there would have been??    Maybe my initial comment about "magical security" being hand wavey, at least from the core spell law rules wasn't too far off?

Thanks again

[C.Tozer]

Just get a dog. I'm still incredibly annoyed that people consider being invisible as being some kind of incredibly effective way to bypass security. Invisible people still have a weight, so having a system sensitive to weight (e.g. someone walking on it) works. Invisible people still have a smell, so having a system sensitive to smell (…such as a mere dog) works. Invisible people still make noises, so having a system sensitive to noise works. And, in a magical world, invisible people still have a presence and a magical aura, so detecting presence or magical aura works.
Or, you know, just have a closed door, as being invisible doesn't make one able to go through it.

Obviously, guards should not be aware of where the magical protections are and how to circumvent them - even without mind reading, one of the best infiltration preparation tools is social engineering, and guards are people, too. Now guardian constructs *can* be aware of magical protections, since they will not be interrogated under most circumstances.

RE "guardian constructs" interesting idea thanks.