Author Topic: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?  (Read 2498 times)

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Offline Moriarty

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Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« on: January 17, 2009, 03:43:46 PM »
Today I realised something about initiative in RM2 that I never realised before:
In light of the following quote, I am having trouble justifying initiative determination as a fundamental necessity of RM2 combat.

From RM2 Arms Law, on the 10-second combat round:

The Rolemaster tactical combat sequence is based on 10-second battle rounds [...].
Normally, each combatant is allowed one attack roll per round, whether it be a spell, missile (bow and thrown fire), or melee. The rationale behind allowing missile and melee combatants only one roll every ten seconds is that, though he or she may actually swing or fire more often than this, only one effective attack is made in a given round. The other swings/shots are assumed to be nullified by a shield, movement, a weapon, and/or fate.


This is reworded but essentially unchanged in RMC.

And, from RM2 Arms Law, on melee initiative:

The quickest combatant normally swings first in a melee, but this may be be modified based on a number of factors, including weapon size, weight, etc.
Each combatant should total his initiative points [...].
The combatant with the largest total swings first, then the second largest total, and so on.


Note that RM2 applies initiative points only to melee attacks. Missile/thrown attacks made in the same phase are resolved simultaneously. Same with spell attacks.

RMC discards the entire RM2 phase based combat sequence and adopts something which could be described as more RMSS/FRP-like; a system where initiative plays a much larger role in determining the order of actions. RMC suggests initiative determination rolls for all combatants every single round.

The basic question I would like to ask here is:
If a round is a 10-second 'fog of war', and if all combatants actually swing or fire several times each 10-second round, how can it be so important who swings first?

Why do we bother with the extensive bookkeeping needed for keeping track of initiative order, or even (in the case of RMC) several initiative die rolls and calculations each round, just to determine who swings first, when at the same time we assume that several swings are made by each combatant each round?

Obviously, the more attacks each combatant makes in a given round, the less interesting it becomes who made the very first swing in that round. Unless we assume that the first swing always is the one that hits, which would be consistent but weird.

To take this reasoning one step further, the longer a fight between two combatants lasts, the less important it becomes who made the initial, first swing (well maybe not in court, but game mechanically). If we list the exhange of blows as a sequence of 1's and 2's where 1's represent the swings made by combatant 1, and 2's represent the swings made by combatant 2, and with the 'effective' blows that actually hit in bold, it might look like this:

2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,...

Now, if the very first hit by combatant 2 slams combatant 1 in the face and stuns him, and if this hit turned out to be decisive for the outcome of the fight, then obviously the 'first strike' ability of combatant 2 was very important. This is a fact, and realistic.
If, on the other hand, nothing really decisive happens during the first series of swings made by either combatant, then who strikes 'first' seems to become an increasingly meaningless question to ask. The opportunity to strike alternates between combatant 1 and 2, and who swings 'first' is simply not important.

Why then, in your opinion, must we insist on determining and applying initiative order round after round?

And, has anyone tried to play Rolemaster without initiative determination, or maybe with initiative applied only during the first few rounds of a fight? It seems simple enough to resolve all melee attacks simultaneosuly, like it is done with ranged attacks in RM2.

The answer to who swung first could very well be considered lost in the 10-second 'fog of war' that was a basic premise of RM2 combat and, I must assume, is a basic premise of RMC as well, since it was included. If implemented the right way, then not having to keep track of initiative, or only having to keep track during the first few rounds, could be a breath of fresh air and add simplicity and speed to combat resolution.
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2009, 05:27:51 PM »
Simple answer --

Initiative ISN'T about which character swings first, it is about which character gets to resolve the "one" good attack that has any chance of connecting in the round. It also works to impose an orderly progression upon resolution, which allows for earlier results to have an impact upon later results.

If you really want to get away from initiative, then what you need is something like a second-by-second system,  (or the TAP system from one of the RoCo books) where actions are declared and then xx increments later, you resolve them and then the following increment declare the next action, and all actions have a specific number of increments (or a base and adjustable number) required for completion.


Offline dutch206

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Re: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2009, 08:47:04 PM »
Since every entry in Monsters and Treasures comes with an initiative modifier (Attack Quickness), I would say Initiative is fairly central to RMC combat.  Just MHO.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2009, 01:41:05 PM »
I think initiative should still be important-- a faster character with a longer weapon getting to attack first seems realistic to me-- but I don't really see the need to do it every round. When we play, we just do it once and keep the same order for the rest of the combat. Mind you, we use a modified version of the DnD initiative rules, so we're already a bit different. But it works for us.

I appreciate that many people might prefer a more complex system, so go ahead and use whatever you like. I just find that making one roll for each character at the beginning of combat and then keeping that order throughout works fine, and cuts down on a lot of rolling and rerolling.
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Offline ictus

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Re: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »
I have never used initiative in RM, which is a through back to how we started playing RM1, it works for me, though it sometimes gets a little tricky at times. It's all about how you play, and as we play in a very free form way it works. For us all combat is similtanius, except for situation veriants like back attack/surprise and similar.



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Offline Moriarty

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Re: Is Initiative in RM2/RMC fundamental?
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 04:06:02 PM »
I have never used initiative in RM, which is a through back to how we started playing RM1, it works for me, though it sometimes gets a little tricky at times. It's all about how you play, and as we play in a very free form way it works. For us all combat is similtanius, except for situation veriants like back attack/surprise and similar.
Nice. Thank you very much for that reply, it is very useful, because now I know I can make it work too.
I guess critical results stating that "you have the initiative" counts as one of the special situations, where one combatant gets to swing first and apply the result immediately?

It also works to impose an orderly progression upon resolution, which allows for earlier results to have an impact upon later results.
I don't know which is more obvious; but this is still the case, even without initiative.
Look at the rounds as an orderly progression, where results in earlier rounds can have an impact upon later rounds. :)

If you really want to get away from initiative, then what you need is something like a second-by-second system,  (or the TAP system from one of the RoCo books) where actions are declared and then xx increments later, you resolve them and then the following increment declare the next action, and all actions have a specific number of increments (or a base and adjustable number) required for completion.
I don't think so. I think that, because of the unique way Rolemaster combat was originally intended to work, with 10 second rounds containing several swings in an not-so-orderly fashion, I can remove initiative from the game, rule that all melee results are 'simultaneous' (effects such as stun will be from next round). I think combat resolution will be greatly simplified from this, and the effect on realism and balance will turn out to be minor.
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.