Topic: Spell Law Option 2.2, Non Random Spell Acquisition By Individual Spells

[bombshelter13]

In RMC Spell Law, there's an option allowing for more RMSS/RMFRP style spell acquisition on page 22 that has me confused. If I understand it correctly, under this option, a pure spell user pays 2/* for every level in a given spell list learned, regardless of whether the list is open, closed or base for them - am I correct so far?

Now, how does this interact with the 'Spell List Restrictions' chart on page 21 (Table 03-01). Is the character limited in the maximum number of ranks they may develop in a list, in such a way that the skill caps out at the same maximum spell level they'd get under the standard system? Or does this table not apply under option 2.2? If it does not apply, then does that mean that under this option, base, closed and open list are equally dificult to learn and may be learned to an equally high level under this system? If this is the case, is there even any point to picking additional base lists as described under 'Extra Base Lists' on page 21?

There is a second segment that confuses this me. If I may quote, one part of option 2.2's description reads: 'Characters may purchase ranks on up to 5 different lists at normal cost, ranks for the 6th through 10th lists cost x2 DP per rank, ranks for lists beyond the 10th list cost x4 DP per rank.'

There are two alternate interpretations to this text that I'm unable to pick between:

First Interpretation:
This text mean thats ~when advancing a level~, those costs apply to each list in which levels are learned during that level up operation. I.E., under this interpretation, a pure caster levels, and wants to develop 3 levels each in seven different lists. To do so, he would need 54 DP available (making it quite unlikely that he could do so!), calculated as follows:

((2 per rank * 3 ranks * 5 lists) + (4 per rank * 3 ranks * 2 lists)).

Second Interpretation:
This text means that ~throughout a character's career~, those costs apply to each list learned, chronologically. I.E, a magician, during adolescent skill development, learns 3 ranks of Fire Law for 6 DP. During apprenticeship skill development, he learns 3 ranks of Light Law for 6 DP. At level 2, he learns 3 ranks of Earth Law for 6 DP. At level 3, he learns 3 ranks of Wind Law for 6 DP. At level 4, he learns 3 ranks of Ice Law for 6 DP. At level 5, he learns 3 ranks of Water Law - as this is his sixth list, he is now paying double, and it costs him 12 DP.

Any insight as to which of these interpretations is correct, and as to my previous confusion regarding the significance of open/closed/base classifications under this option would be greatly appreciated as it sounds like the most appealing way to handle spell list development to me, if I can just work out the mechanics.

[Dark Schneider]

'Characters may purchase ranks on up to 5 different lists at normal cost, ranks for the 6th through 10th lists cost x2 DP per rank, ranks for lists beyond the 10th list cost x4 DP per rank.'

We don't use that, I see it as a rule for low magic campaign, so spell users can't develop many lists.

And about the option 2.2, IMO is the best, removing the random factor is always better, so finally characters depends on their DPs and skills (in RMSS/RMFRP body dev. is fix too dep. on race).
And yes, you have the profession limit for adquire ranks, so if your character is limited to parts A,C for a lists, you can only develop 10 ranks (if I remember well C part is 6-10 lvl spells).

[Cormac Doyle]

Officially ... if you are using the RMSS-compatible spell development rules ... you MUST implement the entire rule (Characters may purchase ranks on up to 5 different lists at normal cost, ranks for the 6th through 10th lists cost x2 DP per rank, ranks for lists beyond the 10th list cost x4 DP per rank). Note that this is EXACTLY the same rule as all RMSS/RMFRP spell casters must adhere to ...

The result of this is that a normal character will not develop more than 5 lists at a time.

However, he does not have to develop the SAME lists each time.

In RMC (under this rule), a 1st level magician can have up to 3 ranks in 5 lists (30DPs). @ 2nd level, they will have 3 ranks in all 10 base lists; etc ... (3rd = 5@6,5*3; 4th = 10@6; 5th=10@6,5*3; 6th=15@6)

In RMC using "classic development", a 1st level magician will have 1 list @ 10th level (30dps invested ... allows the full purchase of one list to 10th, and 10 dps to purchase a 50% chance of another) ... by 6th level they should have 9 lists @ 10th level.

there is no major difference in overall power (character = 6th level; RMSS = 15 lists @ 6th level; RM2 = 9 lists @ 10th level) ... but the RMSS-style development gives a lot more RELEVENT spells, as by default, you cannot "overcast", and thus using traditional spell acquisition, the magician has only 1 spell at 1st level, instead of 5. 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In RMC Spell Law, there's an option allowing for more RMSS/RMFRP style spell acquisition on page 22 that has me confused. If I understand it correctly, under this option, a pure spell user pays 2/* for every level in a given spell list learned, regardless of whether the list is open, closed or base for them - am I correct so far?   

Yes. And don't forget that the cost must still be paid for each "slot" on a list regardless of whether or not there is a spell in that slot.  (i.e. a list has a spell at lvl 1 and lvl 3, but none at lvl 2 - the character must pay 2 DP for all three levels to get to both the first and third level spells).

Now, how does this interact with the 'Spell List Restrictions' chart on page 21 (Table 03-01). Is the character limited in the maximum number of ranks they may develop in a list, in such a way that the skill caps out at the same maximum spell level they'd get under the standard system? Or does this table not apply under option 2.2? If it does not apply, then does that mean that under this option, base, closed and open list are equally dificult to learn and may be learned to an equally high level under this system? If this is the case, is there even any point to picking additional base lists as described under 'Extra Base Lists' on page 21?

The limits are still in place. This option does nothing to alter or remove those limits (Options 2.4 & 2.5 alter the level limits, but do NOT change how spell lists are learned -- they would require some alterations if you are going to use them in conjunction with Option 2.2).

Now, in the RMX/RMC Character Creation Guidelines - http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/CharGen - ICE specifically uses a variant of Option 2.2 for the learning of spell lists. In this variant, the max limit of spell lists per level is set at 5 (additional lists for a doubling of the cost are not included/explained, but it wouldn't be any bother at all to include it back), and ICE increased the level limits on Open Lists for Hybrids (to 20th level) and for Closed Lists for Semis (to 5th level)

ICE also introduced some flexibility in Base lists, allowing a Semis to choose a 6th Base List from the Closed Lists of their Realm, and allowing Hybrids to swap out up to 2 Base lists for 2 Closed lists.

There is a second segment that confuses this me. If I may quote, one part of option 2.2's description reads: 'Characters may purchase ranks on up to 5 different lists at normal cost, ranks for the 6th through 10th lists cost x2 DP per rank, ranks for lists beyond the 10th list cost x4 DP per rank.'

There are two alternate interpretations to this text that I'm unable to pick between:

First Interpretation:
This text mean thats ~when advancing a level~, those costs apply to each list in which levels are learned during that level up operation. I.E., under this interpretation, a pure caster levels, and wants to develop 3 levels each in seven different lists. To do so, he would need 54 DP available (making it quite unlikely that he could do so!), calculated as follows:

((2 per rank * 3 ranks * 5 lists) + (4 per rank * 3 ranks * 2 lists)).

This is the correct interpretation. And the next time he goes up a level, the first 5 lists that buys ranks in cost 2 DP rank again.

The cost doubling is ONLY for lists learned in a SINGLE level. Once the purchasing of lists is done for the level, then the doubling is removed (until the next time that the character wants to buy ranks in more than 5 lists in a single level).

Second Interpretation:
This text means that ~throughout a character's career~, those costs apply to each list learned, chronologically. I.E, a magician, during adolescent skill development, learns 3 ranks of Fire Law for 6 DP. During apprenticeship skill development, he learns 3 ranks of Light Law for 6 DP. At level 2, he learns 3 ranks of Earth Law for 6 DP. At level 3, he learns 3 ranks of Wind Law for 6 DP. At level 4, he learns 3 ranks of Ice Law for 6 DP. At level 5, he learns 3 ranks of Water Law - as this is his sixth list, he is now paying double, and it costs him 12 DP.

This interpretation is incorrect.

Any insight as to which of these interpretations is correct, and as to my previous confusion regarding the significance of open/closed/base classifications under this option would be greatly appreciated as it sounds like the most appealing way to handle spell list development to me, if I can just work out the mechanics.

Well, I hope that my above comments help.

[dutch206]

This is going to kill you, but I actually prefer the core rules spell acquisition system, for one simple reason:  limited development points.  (assuming you use the "40 dp's per level" rule).

Consider the following examples, in which a pure spell user is purchasing ranks in spell lists:

Core Rules Version:

Spend 20 dp's to get 20 ranks, thereby automatically learning one spell list to 10th level.  Spend 5 dp's to get a 25% chance of learning a second list (Plus optional realm stat bonus).  Total cost:  25 out of 40 development points.  This leaves me 15 development points for body development and other skills.

Optional Rule 2.2 version:

Spend 30 dp's to gain 3 ranks on each of five spell lists. (2 points per rank times 3=6.  6 times 5= 30.)  Total Cost:  30 out of 40 development points.  This leaves me only 10 development points for body development and other skills.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Oh...... that gives me an idea for some more variants on Option 2.2 

[bombshelter13]

Thanks Rasyr, Cormac! I think I've got a better idea how it works, now.

Bombshelter13.