Topic: Bonus material items

[black flag]

Hi to all folks.
In the CT I of RMC there are rules about material qualities and bonuses from special materials. P150-151.
What if a grand master (with 25 ranks and able to make 25 bonus weapons like in the table 08-01) work w/ eog (a +30 material)? The weapon will be a +30? a +28 ? (25+30/2= 27,5=28)?
If the crafter has 30 ranks? a +30 (quality) with a +10 material (high steel II) thus in fact a +30 weapon will be produced? or a +20? (30+10/2=20). or +30 +10= +40?
Tank IOU for the answers!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

IIRC, under the general rules, quality and material bonuses can stack, but magical bonuses cannot.

Enchanted Iron thru Eog are considered to be magical materials according to the descriptions on Table 08-02. Therefore, I would rule that their bonuses cannot be stack with quality bonuses.

This would mean that your first example would be either a +25 quality weapon OR a +30 Eog weapon.

In your second example, the weapon would be a +40 weapon; +30 from the quality and +10 from the non-magical material.

[black flag]

Tanx for your (very) fast and clear answer!
Have a good Christmas time

[thrud]

What's IIRC?

Rasyr> I think you're wrong on that one. A material bonus is a material bonus. Mithril, Laen and Eog are materials which is magical by their nature but you can still enchant them. Looking at Enchanting Ways (p.165 RMC Spell Law) there is no mentioning of any specific materials needed to cast the weapon II, III, IV, ... spells. Thus you should be able to cast a Weapon II as well as a Weapon IV spell on a mithril weapon.
Possibly you need the Work Mithril (p.167 RMC Spell Law) spell to make the weapon in the first place.
Sticking to the rules (p.55 RMC Spell Law), "If weapons and armour are enchanted to get a magical bonus, then the user can elect to use either the non-magical bonus (due to material) or the magical bonus (but not both)."
I would call the Enchanted steel I & II the odd ball since they should be Low steel (I) & High steel (II) with an enchantment.

Anywho, keeping within the rules as far as I can interpret them.
Craftsmanship and material bonuses stack.
There is no mentioning of magic and craftsmanship besides magical weapons being considered superior craftsmanship with bonuses to strength. (I saw it somewhere?)

So, to make a mithril weapon you would have to cast Work Mithril once a day during the creation process.
To make a ordinary +20OB magical weapon you would have to cast weapon IV once per day during the creation process.
Either way you get a +20 magical weapon.

Now, throwing the craftsmanship into the mix and this is the interesting part.
Creating both weapons equal with a +25 bonus for Masterwork you get.
1) +45 Mithril weapon. (magical)
2) +20 magical or +25 non magical weapon.

Of course replacing the Iron with Black alloy you get.
3) +20 magical or +45 non magical.

Now taking this one step further you decide to cast the same Weapon IV spell once per day during the creation of the mithril weapon and you get.
4) +45 Mithril weapon and it's still magical.
So, the casting of the weapon IV spell is just a waste of time. To actually gain any benefit from a weapon spell you would need a weapon X spell (+50 bonus).

Does this still feel sound and logical to you?

I'm very tired so I'm sorry if this is somewhat disorganized.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

What's IIRC?

IIRC == If I Recall Correctly

Rasyr> I think you're wrong on that one. A material bonus is a material bonus. Mithril, Laen and Eog are materials which is magical by their nature but you can still enchant them. Looking at Enchanting Ways (p.165 RMC Spell Law) there is no mentioning of any specific materials needed to cast the weapon II, III, IV, ... spells. Thus you should be able to cast a Weapon II as well as a Weapon IV spell on a mithril weapon.
Possibly you need the Work Mithril (p.167 RMC Spell Law) spell to make the weapon in the first place.

The Yes, those materials are considered magical by nature, and they require specific spells to work them, with the result being an object with an inherent magical bonus.

This does not mean that the item cannot be further enchanted, it only means that items of these materials are ALREADY enchanted to some degree by their very nature and that the bonuses received from items made of these materials is considered to be (and will detect as) magical in nature.

Sticking to the rules (p.55 RMC Spell Law), "If weapons and armour are enchanted to get a magical bonus, then the user can elect to use either the non-magical bonus (due to material) or the magical bonus (but not both)."
I would call the Enchanted steel I & II the odd ball since they should be Low steel (I) & High steel (II) with an enchantment.

No, the entire bottom range of that table (08-01) is the oddball since those bonuses are considered magical even though they are partly material in nature as well. I would rule that the primary deciding factor is that a spell of some sort is required to create an object of that material. You can create Low and High Steel weapons without spells, but you cannot create Enchanted Steel I or II weapons without the use of spells, just as you cannot create mithril, laen or eog weapons or objects without the use of spells.

The table lists them as being "magic", thus their bonuses as treated as being magic bonuses for the purpose of whether or not they can be combined/stacked with other bonuses just as their bonuses are treated as magical to determine what they can or cannot hit. This is because these materials require the use of spells to create the finished objects.

You can consider that to be the official ruling.

This means that such things as an Enchanted Steel II sword automatically has a +15 magical bonus OR a +10 Non-magical bonus that can be used. While a Mithril Sword only has the +20 magical bonus.

Anywho, keeping within the rules as far as I can interpret them.
Craftsmanship and material bonuses stack.

I agree here, and actually said so up above, Craftsmanship and non-magical material bonuses DO stack.

There is no mentioning of magic and craftsmanship besides magical weapons being considered superior craftsmanship with bonuses to strength. (I saw it somewhere?)

Craftsmanship bonuses are not magical in nature, so they would stack with other non-magical bonuses.

However, the rules do clearly state that material (non-magical) and magical bonuses do not stack. So by simple extension, other non-magical bonuses would not stack with magical bonuses.

Therefore, Craftsmansip bonuses would not stack with magical bonuses.

So, to make a mithril weapon you would have to cast Work Mithril once a day during the creation process.
To make a ordinary +20OB magical weapon you would have to cast weapon IV once per day during the creation process.
Either way you get a +20 magical weapon.

Now, throwing the craftsmanship into the mix and this is the interesting part.
Creating both weapons equal with a +25 bonus for Masterwork you get.
1) +45 Mithril weapon. (magical)
2) +20 magical or +25 non magical weapon.

No, the Mithril Weapon would be the same as #2 on your list there.

Of course replacing the Iron with Black alloy you get.
3) +20 magical or +45 non magical.

Now taking this one step further you decide to cast the same Weapon IV spell once per day during the creation of the mithril weapon and you get.
4) +45 Mithril weapon and it's still magical.
So, the casting of the weapon IV spell is just a waste of time. To actually gain any benefit from a weapon spell you would need a weapon X spell (+50 bonus).

No, casting the Weapon IV isn't just a waste of time.

[thrud]

Rasyr> Quoting your previous reply.

...those materials are considered magical by nature...
While a Mithril Sword only has the +20 magical bonus.
No, the Mithril Weapon would be the same as #2 on your list there.

How can you get a non-magical crafting bonus from a weapon that is magical by it's very nature?

And...

This does not mean that the item cannot be further enchanted

Would a weapon I give you a +25 magical Mithril weapon?

According to the logic in your previous answer it would not matter if it's an apprentice with 2 ranks or a master with 45 ranks in metalworking? As long as he's good enough with his magics and can cast Work Mithril each day. As long as the final product is something that resembles a sword he get the +20 magical bonus?

P.S. I agree on the

No, the entire bottom range of that table (08-01) is the oddball since those bonuses are considered magical even though they are partly material in nature as well. I would rule that the primary deciding factor is that a spell of some sort is required to create an object of that material. You can create Low and High Steel weapons without spells, but you cannot create Enchanted Steel I or II weapons without the use of spells, just as you cannot create mithril, laen or eog weapons or objects without the use of spells.

The table lists them as being "magic", thus their bonuses as treated as being magic bonuses for the purpose of whether or not they can be combined/stacked with other bonuses just as their bonuses are treated as magical to determine what they can or cannot hit. This is because these materials require the use of spells to create the finished objects.

You can consider that to be the official ruling.

This means that such things as an Enchanted Steel II sword automatically has a +15 magical bonus OR a +10 Non-magical bonus that can be used. While a Mithril Sword only has the +20 magical bonus.

D.S.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

According to the logic in your previous answer it would not matter if it's an apprentice with 2 ranks or a master with 45 ranks in metalworking? As long as he's good enough with his magics and can cast Work Mithril each day. As long as the final product is something that resembles a sword he get the +20 magical bonus?

Yup, which means you can have shoddy looking magical weapons. Not every magic weapon has to look like excalibur. 

How can you get a non-magical crafting bonus from a weapon that is magical by it's very nature?

hehe... I was just trying to correct your example. I didn't think it through all the way in HOW I responded. However, I do think that weapons of exceptional workmanship can provide bonuses that are higher than the normal magical bonuses inherent to the weapon.

I also think that there SHOULD be a way to allow for inrceasing magical bonuses through magical craftsmanship (NOT the same as normal craftsmanship), but the rules don't actually cover this.

[dutch206]

Thank you for the rules clarification. 

[thrud]

Rasyr> I think you missed one of my questions, no worries I'll just post it again.

Would a "weapon I" give you a +25 magical Mithril weapon?

On the issue of craftsmanship. Now that we have cleared it up, there are some minor details lacking. Let's make an attempt att fixing it.
Let's assume it's more difficult to produce a bonus due to craftsmanship for a magical weapon than a non-magical weapon.
The rules (p.150 RMC Creatures and Treasures) stipulate +1 bonus per rank in smithing skill for ordinary weapons.
How about making it twice as hard for magical weapon but keeping everything else intact? +1 bonus per 2 ranks in smithing?
You get to use table 08-01 but it demands a much better craftsman, to get the +25 for Masterwork you need at least 50ranks in the appropriate craft.
Would you still use smithing as a skill or do you replace it with some "magical crafting" skill?
Keeping it simple...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I also think that there SHOULD be a way to allow for inrceasing magical bonuses through magical craftsmanship (NOT the same as normal craftsmanship), but the rules don't actually cover this.

As a note, if you were talking about the magical bonus inherent to the weapon, the EC covers it, through the rules about forging elemental items. For instance, Eog is considered a cold-earth alloy and could reach +45 with the use of an Elemental Forge. Since RM2 is compatible with RMC...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

thrud -- I am all for fixing -- why not write it up as an article, and submit it for one of the PDF publications -- http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=cinfo/write

As for the using of Weapon I in addition to Work Mithril, that would have to depend upon the campaign setting and how a GM wants things work in that.

Personally, I would require a spell of equal or higher level to increase the bonus (i.e. use Work Laen spell to make +25 Mithril weapon), not a spell of a lower level (which seems counter-intuitive).

[thrud]

Yeah, ok. Fair enough...
How many words/pages do you suppose would be suitable for such a publication?
I'll make some calls and bounce a few ideas off my old gm's.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Look at the link I sent you -- there are guidelines in there. If you are interested in just a PDF article go to the links on that page, otherwise look at the links for the other pages.

[sesostris]

Hi All,

Cool thread.
Let me get this straight though,
if you take some Eog, make a sword out of it, it's now +30
due to it's natural endowments of magic....now you enchant it
even more with the enchant4 spell for another +20,
so now you have a magic +40 sword correct?   Or is this the
stacking that isn't allowed?  I sure hope not.
How else can one create awesome weapons of legend like some in
creatures and treasures..... +75 longswords that are +100 vs demons, etc...
+50 armor, etc...

What is the limit for all that by the way?  Is there an official one?
Or can you overcast or double cast or speak the magic language that
increases the potency of your enchantment? Thus turning your enchant4 (+20)
into something crazy like a +40 or more....?

Always wondered how exactly the elves and other amazing individuals get to make such mighty items. I guess Gods can make whatever they want, however. But how do the high level, super rad do it?

Sesostris

[black flag]

Hi!
The weapons that You are talking about are artifacts and thus beyond the normal rules of item creation (I use the simple rules from "Ye Olde Alchemist Companion").
It's up the Master to decide about the crafting of these weapons:
- holy quest (like the Round Table Knights...)
- strange materials (tears of angels...)
- holy rituals
- astral conjunctions (the right stars alignments...but beware of Cthulhu and Co )
- weapons forged in Major Earthnodes....

[thrud]

Sesostris> Ruleswise the stacking you're talking about is allowed but it's up to the GM to put restrictions on it depending on his/her setting.

[rdanhenry]

A key issue is how do you want the balance to stand between personal skill and exceptional weapons? Is the weapon relatively unimportant, with the wielder of supreme importance? Or is there such a range in the potency of weapons available that possessing one of the great ones makes a great fighter out of lowliest of new recruits? Or is there a rough balance between achievements of the warrior's art and the alchemist's craft?

There is no right or wrong answer (although there may be a right or wrong answer for your group). Both traditional tales and modern fiction provide examples of both extremes. But consider carefully what kind of world you want before you decide what kind of bonus-stacking you will allow.