Topic: War Law

[sesostris]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if any of the super advanced mods out there
have a good working knowledge of 'War Law'?
I was curious about when units take their casualties and hits,
is there a way of figuring out which of those casualties
are deaths and how many are wounded, etc..

I was also wondering if there were rules in place for when you know a unit has been totally
obliterated. As it stands the rules say a unit may take more than it's total hits since a single
troop might absorb 60hts to drop him though his max is 40.

I have an example in mind but before I ask just out of the blue I thought I'd
find out who out there has used War Law a decent amount.

Thanks for reading! :-)

[jolt]

I have War Law but haven't looked at it for a long time.  When I get home, I'll dust it off and see what it contains.

jolt

[markc]

Sesostris,
 I have not looked at War Law in quite a while, do you have spcific page #'s where I can look at rules for your questions?

MDC

[sesostris]

Hey guys,
Thanks for looking into this.

On pg26 they mention percentage of casualties that can recover etc...
( casualty is a troop either killed OR wounded)

pg 48 gives examples and explains how to apply combat results.
How many casualties and how many hits delivered on a unit.
the example is 'grunt unit takes 16 casualties and 544 hits'.
But how are those split up and assigned amongst those 16 casualties to know
who is wounded or dead. I assume all are no longer able to function perhaps...
but later (on the next page) they have a note that says a troop may absorb more than it's
total hits before it's dropped or killed etc.... How are you supposed to know what that
'max' absorb total is?
Also they state that if they have taken 100% of their total hits they are at a -30 OB.
But at what point are they truly destroyed I wonder? When they take hits they make morale checks, they may flee or rout etc... But if they magically make their morale all the time and fight to the last man when do you know when each guy is more than wounded and totally dead?

Is it when they take 100% casualties? Regardless of how many hits over their total they've taken?
Or is it when they take double their hit point amount  and 150% or 200% casualties? Denoting definite laughter.......

Military history is full of examples of forces being truly obliterated. I was just wondering how to truly figure that out since it seems that specific info is lacking in the book.... Or I'm totally
blind which is possible, haha..

Here's an example... A force of 2,000 engages another force of 2,000. Thing is, one force is mega skilled over the other and trashes the weaker force. Over the extended War Law battle turn, the powerful unit rolls like crazy and delivers 235,000 hits... The weak unit's max hts was 200,000.
It also inflicted 2,720 casualties. I think thats 136% casualties....the force only had 2000 guys...
So is the force dead to the last man? Is everyone in it a casualty ( yes) but how many are 'actually' dead? How many can still fight?  It's definitely devastating but how devastating?

The average hps of the troops were 100 hits each. Dividing 235,000HTs by 2000 guys
means each guy took 117.5 hts..... So they are dead...Or as that one note claimed, they can perhaps take more before they are dropped....

Or do you divide 235,000hts by how many casualties were inflicted, 2,720?
which gives 86 hits per casualty..... so 2,000 guys take 86 hits but 720 guys take another 86
hts which would definitely kill them.... so 720 guys are dead and the others are wounded?
So a force that got smacked with 136% casualties only has 720 deaths on its side? 
Is that right?  I don't know, could be...

Sorry for the long chat but I'm wondering which is the way to do it.
Thanks for having a go at all of this.

Regards,

[ironmaul]

I'm no expert on War Law but I know someone that is. I'll see if I can get him to have a look at this thread and answer some of your questions.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I'm by no means an expert, but the word "Casualties" in War Law simply means unable to fight, not necessarily that those who are casualties are fatalities.

A Casualty in this case could be someone who has suffered over 100% hits but not suffered a bleeding wound, or one that has suffered a combined total of injuries which make it unpractical for them to continue. (e.g. an individual with +60 OB with -80 physical injury penalties), being knocked unconsious/incapacitated by a blow that does not render them to 0 hits (quite a few RM crits do this, even for results like "Broken Leg". It also covers situations where an individual "chickens" out.

This is why the percentage of survivors is determined after the battle. This percentage should IMO be skewed by circumstance, for instance, actual fatalities may be less where the two sides accept the injured losers or greater where "no prisioners" has been ordered.

However, this does not really answer your question, since you are interested in the effects on a unit IN battle.

The answer to this is a Unit is Obliterated when the number of casualties exceeeds the number of individual in the unit. Full Stop.

What you are asking is whether all the unit are killed.

The best way to do this, I believe, would be to take the post-battle casualty determination and skew it by the % of casualties caused in battle that exceeded the total number of combatants in the unit.

e.g. 2000 troops, suffer potoentally, 3000 casualties. So 150% of what are normally considered fatalities actually are killed.

So in a case where the victor holds the field and one side has been given "no prisioners" orders and the other "fight to the last breath" then quite concieveably ALL the opposing troops would be fatalities. However, in normal circumstances someone would survive.

Whether that person is sufficent to reform a unit is debatable. so even in that case the UNIT has effectively been destroyed to a point where it cannot be re-formed. In game terms, roll up a new character!

[GrumpyOldFart]

Here's an example... A force of 2,000 engages another force of 2,000. Thing is, one force is mega skilled over the other and trashes the weaker force. Over the extended War Law battle turn, the powerful unit rolls like crazy and delivers 235,000 hits... The weak unit's max hts was 200,000.
It also inflicted 2,720 casualties. I think thats 136% casualties....the force only had 2000 guys...
So is the force dead to the last man? Is everyone in it a casualty ( yes) but how many are 'actually' dead? How many can still fight?  It's definitely devastating but how devastating?

Don't think of this as official or anything, I've never read War Law. But if you're just thinking in terms of how to get a believable post-battle report, that's easy enough.

Or do you divide 235,000hts by how many casualties were inflicted, 2,720?
which gives 86 hits per casualty..... so 2,000 guys take 86 hits but 720 guys take another 86
hts which would definitely kill them.... so 720 guys are dead and the others are wounded?
So a force that got smacked with 136% casualties only has 720 deaths on its side?
Is that right?  I don't know, could be...

How about 2000 - 720 who are *already dead at the end of the battle* leaves 1280, - another 720 so badly wounded they'll be dead within a few days without proper medical care, leaving 560.
560/2 = 280 too wounded to fight, but who have a better than 50% chance of eventual recovery with minimal care, leaving 280. Split those between those captured and those who deserted.

So, of 2000, the *current* "butcher's bill" is 720, but expect that to climb to near 1450 by the end of the week. You have around 1000 wounded, dropping to 300 or so by the end of the week. You have about 150 or so prisoners that actually have to be watched, and the area is going to have a problem with looters & etc. until the other 150 or so are run down.

Keep in mind, the above has nothing whatever to do with War Law's way of figuring such things. It's just an example of how you can easily split up the numbers to get a believable result.

[markc]

 After a quick look in my War Law box the rule book is not in there. I will keep looking for it but I might have some answers for you.

1) In RM a PC does not die at 0 hits, they go unconscious at 0 hits. So it is quite possible for a troop of 2000 that have take enough hits to knock everyone of them out to have no deaths. That is unless thier opponents state they are actively making sure every enemy combatant is dead.

2) From memory again I think that a unit is destroyed around the 200% mark but I may be wrong. Why? Because the tables are using statics for results. So this means that a solder that has 40 hits, takes 39, then takes 70 for a total of -69. When he was dead at -40 [or some other number]. This also means that the solder who took more hits in effect has taken those hits for another soldier, thus giving you a situation in which the until can take more hits than it has.
3) As for the math I am going to have to wait till I find my copy of the War Law book to help you with your questions.

MDC

[sesostris]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the responses. All of this is helpful.
I must point out that as stated in War Law on pg 7...They
define a casualty as " A combatant (soldier) who is incapacitated or killed"...

So is 'incapacitated' defined as being at zero hits? Unconscious? major crit damage etc... I imagine it's not meant to include the somewhat wounded...

Thanks Markc for jumping in again as well.....  I was familiar with zero hts being out but not dead but I often forget when death arrives.... If a character( troop) has 150 or 120 hits,  are they actually dead when they hit -150 or -120? Is that the guideline?  If thats the case, then the 200% casualties or the infliction of double the total hits could indeed be one way to go...overall....  It's interesting, I don't think they ever explicitly say that in the book though.... I could be wrong.

But that would still leave the interesting question of how to find out who's dead out of the casualties inflicted for all 'non' obliteration situations. ( once again purely as an in battle determination, not waiting till its all over to find out etc..)
The search continues but this is all great, thanks everybody....

Once this gets wrestled with I have a question about XP for the units. They have the charts in the back... are all of those used, or you choose just one?  Well, we'll get into that later, hahaha... first things first.

Regards,
Sesostris

[markc]

Sesostris,
 I just found my Warlaw book but I have a few things I have to do before I can dig into it. I hope I have a chance to get back to you tomorrow some time.
MDC

[ictus]

I'm by no means an expert,

yes you are.....

as there are no modesty points I'll give you an idea point, for all your ideas on War law... especially your unit creation spreadsheet...

[ironmaul]

Yeah, he's such a modest fella. 

[markc]

pg 26;
 "Unrecovered casualties are assumed to be dead or wounded too seriously to return to their units." [left side last sentence 2nd paragraph.
 So it is a simple multiplication of the units casualty result. To me an unrecovered causality might involve a person who has both legs broken or an arm broken with other wounds. If you do not try and recover your wounded people then you can have a lot of dead because if they do not get treatment they will pass away.
 Also on page 26 it talks about PC and NPC Casualties, in the paragraph below it tells you to look at section 10.1 for "lost" NPC's and PC's during battle as well as use the Character Causality Chart below and raise the % by adding twice the PC's level. [Note in my game I added to the PC's level sometimes for magic items and or other factors I thought should weigh in the PC's or prime NPC's favor.]

 I know later in the book they talk about magical healing and stuff but I am just skimming the book to answer your questions.

On page 30 under the first column under PC Causalities is provides special rules for PC routs or units in which a PC is in is routed.

page 48;

 If you look at page 49 under the Hit Point Damage Effects Section in the first column and the Note: at the very bottom of the section it shoulh have all the info you need.

 I would have to say I would also have liked them to track a units hits as a stat to make things easier in a long drawn out multi-battle campaign. But that is just me.

 Also I too would have liked it if they explained more about troops being dead at -XX based on the units Con stat I believe.

Note: I just skimmed the War Law book from pages 1-49 and some of my comments maybe addressed later on in the book. I also recomend reading the whole book through and then read it again as it makes a lot more sense the second time around.

Have Fun
MDc
 
 

[ictus]

by the way if you want the unit creation spreadsheet, all you have to do is log into rpgrm.com and goto the downloads/warlaw are, as with anything there it's free.

It takes a lot of the hastle out of unit creation, even I can use it (with GBs help )

[markc]

ictus,
 Is that a new spreadsheet? I think I have an old DOS program that is sitting on a laptop about to die and I would like to get one a little more up to date.

MDC

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Yes. It's a completely different custom-built spreadsheet... intended for an eventual rewrite of the RM rules to RMSS/RMFP.

There are less support unit types because the skills sets can be customised. The number of professions & races have been expanded upon.

It does need some explanation as to it's use...and the skills set is quite different to the original. The units are more detailed than the RM version.

However, with most things RM based, there is a lot of crossover. For instance, you can use the units with the existing rules sets for most things. In fact, I'm still using the old combat tables for my playtesting!

It is intended purely as a unit creation spreadsheet not a combat results generator. Currently still being playtested. As Ictus said you are welcome to download. Please Let me know what you think.

[ictus]

now let's get back to play testing GB.... charge.................

by the way the area on our site we are play testing is passworded out, so as to keep our plans secret from each other, when it's finished you'll get to see what happened just like the last one that can be found in our war lords area...

perhaps ICE could bring back War Law as War Law Classic, and as GB to get down and dirty with it... or even a whole new version....

sorry probably getting a bit previous, but it would be nice to see..

[markc]

 I would love to see an updated War Law or even a re-envisiond War Law.

 I used War Law for a huge series of battles in my fantasy game back in 2000-2002. There were a few tweeks as I was using RMSS and not RM2 but it worked great and provided a different game experience for me and my players.

MDC

[ictus]

Maybe gb could make an opening for you as a surprise unit or perhaps you could join the next battle if the Orc/human stand off in our game ever ends (they seem to have this stratergy of waiting till night LOL)

[ironmaul]

Yeah, you'll be laughin' on the other side of your face once the sun drops.