Topic: Rules Help: grappling and grabbing

[Hurin]

Ok, my new campaign has begun and, as usual, my players have begun moving into uncharted territory.

They keep trying to do two things:

1. Grapple enemies in combat. I've never found the grappling rules in RM2 to be particularly good. I mean, I could have them make attacks on the grapple/grasp/envelop table, but they would have low bonuses (should I require them to get ranks in MA Sweeps and Throws to do this?) and probably would have a very tough time trying to get a grip on anyone. It would seem a little harder to do than it should be.

2. Grab friends and push them out of harm's way. Sometimes, when a character is struggling with a big baddie and losing, other characters try to grab that character from behind and toss him out of the way, or bull rush him and shove him out of the way. Has anyone developed rules for this? The bull rush rules in DnD seem to be ok, so I've kind of been using those (just modifying them for a percentile rather than a D20 system).... but I'd be open to suggestions. And I have no idea how to handle a character trying to grab another character and throw him out of the way.

Any ideas are welcome.

[Justin]

Good job, players! 

1)Yes to MA:Sw&Th. I used to wrestle, and I think that's the best skill to use. That is, if you don't include the Wrestling skill which was specifically spelled out in some Companion. I honestly wouldn't, MA is good enough.
If they want their bonus to be good, it is up to them to develop it; your only responsibility to make it known which skill you want developed.
I am, however, not sure how satisfied I am with the Grappling table and critical results. When I wrestled, there wasn't all that much damage--of coarse, that was in a controlled environment, and some moves were illegal because of the bone-breaking which would happen. But more to my point, holds and what not are about control--not damage, bleeding, or any other serious damage. To me, it is all about reducing available activity% and general negative modifiers.  "I'm behind you and have an arm pinned to your back. You are at -25 and cannot attack me."

[GrumpyOldFart]

I agree Justin, but the potential for *unintentional* damage is still very much there, that's a big part of why you trained. I'm good with MA: S&T (Wrestling) as the source of the skill bonus, but I can't say I'm all that happy with the results it generates. Yes, failure should be failure, unqualified success should equal *control* of your opponent, possibly with major damage, most likely with little or none. But part of me also wants a near success or a barely successful result to yield damage *but not* control.
Achieving this would also make it much more useful to the Channeling Healer who wants to make a tumbling maneuver *through an ongoing melee* and hopes to come out with a saveable patient on the other side. If the MA roll is successful, the tumbling maneuver continues with the patient as part of the maneuver. It would also make it much more useful to the GM facing that, as he has an answer to, "Okay but what if the Healer gets stepped on on the way through? Or what if the Healer only *barely* succeeds as he rolls through? Does that mean he grabs a wrist as he goes by and his own motion dislocates his patients' shoulder?"

[yammahoper]

If you play RM2 or RMSS, a GM can allow wrestling to be trained just like martial arts, with four degrees.  This greatly improves the power of wrestling and puts it on par with martial arts sweeps attacks.

[Hurin]

Good to see this thread finally getting some input.

I too wrestled a bit in high school, and agree that it doesn't really inflict much 'hit point' damage, as it were. The problem for me with the grappling table is that it is more about hits and such than control... but some of the grappling criticals are quite good. It just seems so hit-and-miss.

At least we're all agreed that we can have people develop skill in MASW + Throws for this. Greco-Roman wrestling seems much like Sweeps and Throws. I wonder what skill we'd use for a submission-style, though, like Brazilian JuJitsu

Keep the good ideas coming

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you are wanting to do grappling without injury, there is a simple method to do so. It is called the Movement & Maneuver table.

GM decides what stats are relevant, and how difficult the maneuver is, then you roll, add your bonuses, and look up the result (usually a number).

That number could be read a number of different ways.

against a foe -- he has to roll to break free, and the number is a negative mod to his roll (representing how well you have grappled him

or it could reflect how much of the action you have completed.

Or it could reflect the percentage chance of completion (i.e. you have to roll under it to succeed).

The table is there, it is your freind (much like the computer is your friend).

[yammahoper]

Hurin, if you can find it, you want the Locks and Holds crit table from Martial Arts Companion.  EXCELLENT crit table.

[Hurin]

Yeah, that one's pretty good... I may use that rather than grappling.

Thanks for the tip.