Author Topic: Profession: Adventurer?  (Read 3323 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thrud

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,351
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Profession: Adventurer?
« on: December 02, 2008, 01:39:45 PM »
Reading the same discussion over and over and over and over and... it got me thinking in a different way. I'm not sure if I even like it myself?
Basically the entire concept of pc's having a profession is screwed up.
Just think about it for a while.
Before you start play you have a profession and when you retire you may pick up a trade of some sorts but as long as you're in play you're an adventurer.
Really the life's the same for a Fighter and a Magician although they have different interests.
For some this means everyone should be playing no-profession profession.
But no, s0rry... that doesn't cut it for me.
A few questions spring to mind:

1. Should there be a way to express natural aptitudes for the characters?
2. If a character changes his focus, should there be a way to change the skill costs?

For me a profession is just that, a profession. Some people seam to regard the profession as the character's natural aptitudes.

A. If we run with the natural aptitudes approach, shouldn't the profession change the skillcosts based on focus?
B. If we go with the other approach, profession is actually a profession and it reflects the professional focus. Shouldn't there be a way to change focus? Everyone can get a new job...

What's your take on this?

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 312
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 02:37:58 PM »
It depends on which setting and what kind of story you have your characters play.

I play in an historical setting and in a fantasy one. Both are home-made.

I  the historical setting, a player who is a knight remains a knight all along : he has a small land to lord over, peasants to protect, taxes to raise, he must deal with justice and must obey the feudal code. A craftsman has a trade, soemtimes a shop, probably a wife and some kids. At some point in their lives, something happen that will band together the knight, the craftsman, a sergeant and an herbalist. But they never stop being what they are : the knight must act like one, the craftsman can't really stop his trade (or his family will starve) and the herbalist must keep being one, she does not know any other trade, how would she survive ?

In the fantasy setting, I'll just give the example of the current party. The elven bard is here to note down and later sing the tale of the party. She also is here to gather inforamtions and learn hidden secrets. She's been asked so by her queen. Trus, she adventures underground, but the reason why she is there is her trade. She is not interestied in money, if she was, she'd be singing love songs for a rich human lady, in a warm and cozy manor, she would so not risk life or limb into a labyrinth of hard stone populated by goblins, undead and "things that can't be named".
The dwarves ? One is a master smith, he is here to reclaim an ld mine taht turned out to be full of dangers. What he wants is the silver ore that will make him and his companions rich. He wants the mine. (HE made me start the campaign, actually).
It quickly appeared that somehing was terribly wrong here. It started when he met dwarve refugees from the mine, he promised to help them if they agreed to make him a king. THey agreed after much debate. NOw, our darf needed a solid party to take on the cahllenge.

First, the bard. Because she is a good friend, because she is in a strong position at the elven court. Because she knows magic, because she fights damn well for a "light-bone". And the bard had so many reason to accept it was not even a difficulty to convince her.
Because a king, a dwarven king at that, must have a saga that sings his feats through eternity.

Second, the priest. No sane dwarf would embark into a fight against the unknown without a stout dwarven priest of Gormaz. His job is to have the gods side with the would-be king, to raise the spirits of the refugees and to counter the gods of darkness (understand : any god that do not like dwarves or condone alcoholic beverages). It would suffice the priest, but he also is interested in salvaging holy relics or stone tablets and maybe restoring a former place of worship.

Third, you need a scout. Let's not be short sighted, make it two. One for surface (one never knows). An elven outrider will do : she is a good friend of the bard, keeps to herself like any elf should do and is a deadly shot. On top of that, she knows things that grow or walk like nobody ! Why is she here ? Religious reasons. She is a devotee, some would say a fanatic, to the goddess of life, fertilty and birth. Undeads and other "things" are prey for her. She does not know squat about underground fighting but it was not sufficient to deter her from accomplishing her "holy mission".
One for underground : like this sneaky fellow, the dwarven rogue. A woodcutter  and carpenter specialized in mine architecture, he also is a shady character who likes to go unnoticed. A talent some dwarves find precious in underground warfare. Of course, hs knowledge of caves and mines is precious. Needless to say, the words "lost" "mine" "silver" and "recovery" put together in the same sentence lighted a fire in his eyes that yet has to calm down.

Than, last but not least. You need a professionnal of underground warfare. Here comes the Dwarven fighter. All steel for tip to toe, a large round shield strapped to his back, an impressive array of weapons at hand, he fears nothing. He is a killer, the kind of guy with muscle, determination and brains. Not only an excellent warrior, he also is a brilliant tactic and strategic mind. Why is he here ? Because it's his duty.

All  along he story, each character must use his knowledge, abilites, and skills to gain new parts of the mines, reach the underground city, keep control of what they conquered and put it back into service.





So, if you just have stories for kill/hide/investigate, indeed, you don't need professions. The problem (if there is one) does not lie in the system, it lies in the stories the GM proposes to his players.

Offline thrud

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,351
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 03:56:21 PM »
I'll agree with you on the historical setting but disagree with you on the fantasy setting.
You list reasons for adventuring but they are still doing the samt thing, adventuring even though they all have their specialities.
Ok, the bard can still do his bard thing...

Offline Steve_990

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 05:27:48 PM »
I think the RM definition of Profession is just off really... if you think of the current RM profession as "how you learn" it's really more aptitudes, than professions. Professions are really what you are doing now... e.g. a "Fighter" could have the profession of Guard, Knight, Mercenary, Bandit, etc etc etc....

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 312
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 06:10:25 PM »
I'll agree with you on the historical setting but disagree with you on the fantasy setting.
You list reasons for adventuring but they are still doing the samt thing, adventuring even though they all have their specialities.
Ok, the bard can still do his bard thing...

Trust me, they all do what their character did before adventuring. Because just like in the historicak settings, enemies don't magically have riches on them. If they want to eat, they have to have a trade. In the campaign they spend 20% of theur times fighting and exporing. All the rest is about taking down lumber, working in the mines, building fortifications, preparing for war, gathering food, smithing tools and weaponry and so on. Right now, their goal is to find the foundry, conquer it, beat it back into service and start melting high carbon, tungstene enriched steel for their silver plated weapons.

That's just a question of "what kind of social implication do you put in the setting ?"
I simply put such a high level of those that my players don't feel they are a stalwart band of adventurers out for glory because they need loot, experience and gold to become more deadly. They are normal people, with heir own goals, that band together because they have a reason to.
A fantasy setting is just an historical one with different places, mythic creatures turned true and effective magic. No more, no less. Read a 12th century saga and you have a fantasy setting. That's pretty much what Tolkien did, on a much larger scale.
If in such a setting, a player wants to play a mason, he can, and he will. I'll do nothing to prevent him from playing one. Of course, if the gamemaster keeps serving him stories with orcs, deadly wizards, tunnels and loot, he won't be able to use his masonry skill a lot. But he also good be a mason during summer and hire himself for other tasks the rest of the time. He'd be a mason in summer and a mercenary or guard in winter. LAter on, if he becomes rich, he may become master mason, and then a rich mason, with a lot of employees. He'd be in a good position to take part in political struggles but still be a mason.

It is not system dependant, it is GM dependant.

Offline vroomfogle

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,670
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 06:33:59 PM »
I think the RM term "Profession" is a misnomer.  The system is set up whereby Professions determine your DP costs for all skills and they cannot be changed past character creation so it really represents natural (or learned and set early in life) aptitudes.

I think that there should be a way to change focus, or your actual 'Profession' or job but that these shouldn't be changing the DP costs that just complicates things.  Let natural aptitudes determine cost and 'profession' determine some other bonuses, such as level/profession bonuses.  

Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,584
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2008, 08:17:12 PM »
"Profession" is not a misnomer, it is a technical term. Which is why it is capitalized. It has always been clearly defined as representing aptitude, not vocation, although some descriptions have confused the issue by assuming that aptitude is trained rather than inborn, which I would disagree with. A low magic world would have many Magicians who never learned anything about magic, their natural gifts for elemental destruction never given the chance to blossom.

I suggest that any future rewrite of Rolemaster use another term, such as "Calling", "Aptitude", or "Psychotype".
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,584
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 08:23:04 PM »
"Profession" is not a misnomer, it is a technical term. Which is why it is capitalized.

Although inconsistently, now that I look. Bah. Anyway, if people would simply read the definition and recognize that the term does not mean the character's job, there would be no problem, but humans would rather not learn something new if they can argue instead, so the best thing is to just find another word for it.

Maybe ICE can have a contest.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 09:18:46 PM »
Profession  essentially equals "Aptitude Template" (which I have said many many times in the Unofficial RM Revision forum), IMHO.

What the original poster is calling a  "profession" could also be called his "Vocation"

Also, please remember that the word "Profession" was originally (likely) chosen as an alternative to the word "Class" in use by another system.

Offline thrud

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,351
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 01:44:07 AM »
Sometimes it's difficult to express exactly what you're thinking, this being one of those cases.

The name part really isn't important at all, we can continue to call it profession for all I care.
No, what I'm after is something different.

1. Natural aptitudes are static
2. Your current job will influence how you learn things

Should there be a way to modify skillcosts to reflect your current vocation?
Or todays professions really being natural aptitudes already have the adventurer vocation factored in and we should keep things as they are.


I'm not really pressing for any sort of consensus on anything, to me RMC is pretty much perfect the way it is. I started this thread to get  a discussion going on the whole job/aptitude deal. Skill costs should they be static or dynamic?

Offline thrud

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,351
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 02:22:37 AM »
Over here in Sweden it's morning now and I'm standing here shaving when I realize I've convinced myself with my own arguments. LOL
I wouldn't change anything! Or maybe just change one small thing -> Renaming professions for something less prone to missunderstandings.

1. Your profession reflects the characters natural aptitudes.
2. You're an adventurer now, deal with it. Your life on the road is already factored into the skillcosts.

I guess it's never too late to learn something new. (or old for that matter)

On the other hand, I can't resist the urge to be a little difficult.
How do you justify the spellists being keyed to specific professions?
I can see how a guild would require membership before teaching you the list.
I can see how the old magican teaches his art to his apprentice.
But these are "in game" mechanics and not something dictated by the rules.
Let's assume there are three levels of difficulty of spells. Open, Closed and Base.
There still is no reason to lock a specific list to a profession other than cultural.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 02:45:40 AM by thrud »

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 06:46:24 AM »
How do you justify the spellists being keyed to specific professions?
I can see how a guild would require membership before teaching you the list.
I can see how the old magican teaches his art to his apprentice.
But these are "in game" mechanics and not something dictated by the rules.
Let's assume there are three levels of difficulty of spells. Open, Closed and Base.
There still is no reason to lock a specific list to a profession other than cultural.

Might I refer you to the Priest, Mage, and Mentat in Express Additions #9, which goes to address this very issue in some regard.

In short, those three professions turn the selection of Base Lists into a cultural/setting issue rather than a  "Profession" issue.


Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 06:54:05 AM »
Class/Profession/Discipline its all the same to me. A template on which to base your character, a form of shortcut to character creation. Unlike a true point base system (Gurps, Shadowrun, HERO) where everything has the same cost, you are presented with some of the work already done for you in a level based system (RM, DnD, ED) which is what Profession is for me. This way the player can start with a wish to play a character who are good with melee weapons and wears heavy armor. So oblivious Fighter is a good choice for him because all the skills he need to get his concept to work has already been preselected in the way those "fitting" for the Profession are low in cost, and those "less fitting". IMO this is the core benefit of a level based system.

The way I see RM Professions work are just like that, it is base templates which lists the pros and cons of a given Profession. I assume its from a game balance point of view, that you have a list of low and high costs. The same can be applied to base spell lists IMO.

We can always debate the naming policies for Professions. When I first saw Magician, I thought it was the generalist wizard as I knew from DnD. But its really more an Elementalist as from Earthdawn. So IMO, it should be called Elementalist but thats more in the personal preferrence department than actual game issues;D

My first impression of Champion from Combat Companion (RMC) was that of a holy warrior similar to Paladin, but also a template on which you could base both a paladin and a shadowknight/anti-paladin. Thats more in tune with my personal preferrence. Fewer Professions with a broader base instead of having both paladin and the anti-paladin. Same reason I like Champion, Elemental Warrior, Venturer, Priest, Mage and Mentat. Its a core template on which you can built your character concept. Same skill cost, and then you can vary them by base spell lists.

May not be Rasyr original intent but thats how I use em ;D
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline thrud

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,351
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 06:54:27 AM »
Maybe I should get hold of a few more EA's?

It would be an interesting experiment to drop the Baselist concept and letting everyone pck their own poison.
Think about it a Ranger going for the Healer Base lists, you could still keep it at 5 baselist maximum for a semi and 10 for a pure.
That'd be a litle wierd...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 07:01:54 AM by thrud »

Offline Nejira

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 403
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 06:56:47 AM »
Well I like the EA?s. May not be able to use it all but they are chock-full of good ideas which is always nice, and come with a really nice price ;)
"I'd Rather Be a Rising Ape Than a Fallen Angel"

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

  • Inactive
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 06:59:33 AM »
And if you are interested in knowing what is in the EAs, then just visit this page --> http://www.ironcrown.com/index.php?page=igames/RMC/exad


Offline dutch206

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,019
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 09:14:23 AM »
This is already possible in the RM system.  Profession represents your aptitude for learning different abilities.

Take, for example, the Fighter profession.  Within that profession, this person might be a city guardsman, a soldier, a mercenary,  a caravan guard, a thug for a crime boss, a pit fighter, or any number of other things.  He's still a fighter, but his job changes.  (I suppose my opinion on this subject has been influenced by my exposure to Warhammer FRP.)
"Cthulhu is the bacon of gaming." -John Kovalic, author of "Dork Tower"

Offline Fenrhyl Wulfson

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 312
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Profession: Adventurer?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 06:36:04 PM »

Might I refer you to the Priest, Mage, and Mentat in Express Additions #9, which goes to address this very issue in some regard.

In short, those three professions turn the selection of Base Lists into a cultural/setting issue rather than a  "Profession" issue.



And that's exactly what I expected to happen someday :p
I'll have to adapt something like this for my fantasy setting sooner or later.

This is already possible in the RM system.  Profession represents your aptitude for learning different abilities.

Take, for example, the Fighter profession.  Within that profession, this person might be a city guardsman, a soldier, a mercenary,  a caravan guard, a thug for a crime boss, a pit fighter, or any number of other things.  He's still a fighter, but his job changes.  (I suppose my opinion on this subject has been influenced by my exposure to Warhammer FRP.)

Warhammer FRP is a good inspiration source for this matter, it's a strong aspect of the game, one your players enjoy the most. I played it a lot and then Rolemaster came in solving all the issues I had with it. The professions in RM are like the vocations in WHFRP, all the rest is skill based.