Topic: Maneuver to "touch" someone during combat / out of combat

[edxs]

Allowing players to touch enemies/allies during a melee fracas just screams "abuse" to me.

At the very least touching someone for 7.5 seconds while they are dodging, parrying, and even actively trying to get away and possibly hitting you with a sword is an Absurd maneuver. Not to mention the fact that you really shouldn't get any DB (or a negative DB) when you are standing relatively still in touching distance of somebody attacking you.

I would hope a decent GM would rule that concentrating on touching somebody constantly for 7.5 seconds while casting a spell and moving around the battlefield is absolutely impossible.

Though, if I make an enemy who counts coup, I know what thread to read for resolution ideas.

[Marc R]

I'd think that casting would take 75% of activity, then you'd need to touch the target.

As a for instance, with healing spells, if you moved up to the down fighter, put your hand on them and cast, then you get by on the fact that they're neither resisting, or moving, so you touch and cast. . .

But I don't necissarily see the "touch" part of the spell effect taking 75% action. . .you spend 75% action casting a firebolt, but when the spell goes off, the bolt itself exists for only an instant. By that kind of logic, the touch doesn't need to be held for 75%, you just need to touch the person for an instant, once the spell is active.

That does raise a good point though, that I'd never considered. . .if the spell casting takes 75% activity, is the touching maneuver done in the same round considered to be done in the remaining 25% and at -75? Or is it considered a combined action casting/touching (if so, is it a 75% action, a 100% action?), can the caster carry the touch spell over into the next round, then attempt the touch, only needing to re-cast each time a RR is provoked, or would they need to re-cast each round?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Touch Spells -- There are a number of spells that have a built in activation duration of 3 rounds (i.e. spell works on another spell cast within that limit).

Therefore, I would have no problem having the standard for spells with a range of touch be usable for up to 3 rounds after casting or until the target is touched, whichever comes first. It fits in with the type of spells mentioned above.

Touching a willing target would likely require no more than 10% activity (given that the caster is standing within reach of the target and the target is not doing anything else). Touching an unwilling target (who is aware of the attempt to touch him) is likely going to take 80-100% activity for a round.

It is going to have to be a GM's call on the actual activity required based on the conditions of what is going on at the time.

[vroomfogle]

It depends on how you view the touch.  If you see it more of like an attack, and you allow part of the bonus to be used for parrying (which I think is a very bad idea) then it should be the same as melee... 50% to 100%.

Even if you don't view it as an attack itself since you allow the foe to parry your touch then it is implicitly assumed that the touch maneuver is similar to an attack, so again this should be a 50% to 100% action.

After thinking about this I think I would say casting+touch is a 75% - 100% activity (consider part of the touch and casting to overlap some).  I would not allow skill to be taken in it although one could use their martial arts bonus, except using their Agility/Quickness (Ag/Ag/Qu in the case of RMSS) as the stat bonuses instead of the normal St/Ag.  Foe could parry a touch, but no part of the bonus to touch could be used to parry if it is done in the same round as the casting.

Alternately, the caster could wait and touch the following round in which case it should be treated as a normal melee attack - a touch being anything that does 1 hit or more (but you ignore criticals, the goal here is to touch).   I'd have to look at the chart but I might even grant a +20 or +10 to the roll, representing the fact that they are simply trying to touch rather then injure.

Note that in both cases, whether you have Martial Arts or not, you use the MA attack table and your highest MA skill (Str or S/T) though you change the stat bonuses.

If a caster wants to get better at touching foes in combat then they are best off taking a rank of martial arts, which I think makes good sense.

[Marc R]

That does deal with the balance issues a lot more cleanly also.

I guess the issue comes down to if any of the touch bonus can be used for parry. . .it's odd, if only because the touch can BE parried, which makes it seem a lot like a subduing maneuver than anything else. I do require OB/DB parry splitting on subdues, to simulate offensive/defensive stance. . .just because you're not trying to kill doesn't mean you have to make an all out attack. I know cops, and teachers of autistic children who've had training in subduing, and a lot of that training stresses being defensive, and moving in with a parry/block before attempting a grapple/takedown. . .which makes me feel a parry split is appropriate for subduing at least. The fact that the resolution of subdues and touch spells feel similar to me makes me feel like the rule should be similar for both.

I was looking at SL and the rule on holding spells. . .that would seem to cover "holding" a touch spell until you can actually get a touch, though it does add a few complications.

Perhaps the issue isn't really so much "Should touch attacks allow parry" as "Should spell mastery or martial arts be the skill needed to develop touch attack OB?"

or perhaps:

Touch attacks with bonus developed via spell mastery DO NOT allow for parry

but

Touch attacks with OB developed via Martial arts strikes or MA grapple DO allow for parry.

[vroomfogle]

With my rule above I would allow parry (as long as it is not in the same round as casting), because the skill used is always martial arts.   As  you say, it's not an issue of allowing parry with a touch attack, I think that's fine and makes sense.  But one should not be able to develop Spell Mastery to get the ability to parry better.   I don't think Spell Mastery should come into play at all here - should be strictly martial arts.

Smart casters will try and approach the foe from behind to get +35 to the roll.  Success would not be difficult, even with 0 ranks in MA (vs AT 1 you need a 40 to hit).    Actually now in looking at the chart I think that a critical should be required to successfully touch (though no crit is delivered) to represent a solid and firm touch.   Armor can be explained here by saying that a touch spell actually requires solid contact, rather then just brushing up or touching their armor (against Platemail perhaps one can cast a touch spell by touching the armor but must 'touch' for a tad longer).   This is represented by the striking critical chart.   Armor that covers more of the body will mean it is harder to get a firm touch on someone.

I would use the Striking table for all Touch attacks, but allow someone to use their S/T bonus (still using the Striking attack table) if they are better at S/T.

[Dreven1]

Oh I am not going to allow any mage to "pump" skill into touch. I am just going to allow them to use their Agi + Qui averaged. Nothing to pump I also know that as the PC's level this attack will get harder and harder because of the increase in targets DB and parry.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Oh I am not going to allow any mage to "pump" skill into touch. I am just going to allow them to use their Agi + Qui averaged. Nothing to pump I also know that as the PC's level this attack will get harder and harder because of the increase in targets DB and parry.

My suggestion (after giving this a considerable amount of thought) would be to do the following:

1) Caster must make a Medium Maneuver (on the Maneuver Table) to deliver a spell with a range of Touch (Touch Maneuver) to a target.

2) The target gets his DB and may parry against the Touch Maneuver. Positional bonuses and bonuses such as surprise also apply. Targets who are engaged in combat with others will ALWAYS get their DB, regardless of whether or not they are willing.

3) The caster gets to add his Quickness and Agility bonuses, as well as +2 for each level that he has (perhaps adjust this level modifier based upon how well it works or how easy you want it to be, but not more than +5 per level). This allows those with greater experience to be better at Touch Maneuvers without giving them a new skill to pump points into.

4) The caster may not use his bonus for the Touch Maneuver to parry any attacks by foe's.

5) If the target is willing and standing beside the caster and not doing anything else, then performing the Touch Maneuver takes 10% activity.

6) If the target is not willing, or if they are willing, but are engaged in combat, then the Touch Maneuver will require 75%-100% activity to attempt.

[Dreven1]

I like it! thanks!!! Good synopsis!

[Fidoric]

3) The caster gets to add his Quickness and Agility bonuses, as well as +2 for each level that he has (perhaps adjust this level modifier based upon how well it works or how easy you want it to be, but not more than +5 per level). This allows those with greater experience to be better at Touch Maneuvers without giving them a new skill to pump points into.

This works very fine for me except for this point. I don't see why a spellcaster should become better at touching (or at anything else) without DP expenditure. Becoming better as level goes without paying for it exists in some games, but not in RM IMO. Let your magic user sweat a little to learn some skills at martial arts or in stalking to be able to touch without being detected.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

This works very fine for me except for this point. I don't see why a spellcaster should become better at touching (or at anything else) without DP expenditure. Becoming better as level goes without paying for it exists in some games, but not in RM IMO. Let your magic user sweat a little to learn some skills at martial arts or in stalking to be able to touch without being detected.

It isn't getting better at "touching", but getting better at delivering a spell with a range of touch in a shorter amount of contact time and smaller amount of contact area.

As for characters getting better at things automatically, that IS part of rolemaste. In all versions of Rolemaster there is at least one feature that gets better as you go up in levels - that feature is called Resistance Rolls (the RR bonus doesn't increase, but the target number decreases due to defender's level, so the basic effect is the same thing).

[vroomfogle]

It's also an oft-cited problem with RM.   Many people disliked level bonuses - which is why RMSS went to the profession bonuses.  Many also similarly dislike RR's based on level.    Personally I think any future rules should get further away from this idea rather then use them more.

I have a few additional problems with having a touch maneuver use the Med Maneuver table

- It uses a completely different mechanic then martial arts where it should be very similar.  
- No matter your martial arts or combat training, it has no effect on your ability to touch someone
- Most importantly, using the Med Maneuver table means it's actually FAR harder to touch someone then to hit them (and do damage/critical), which is backwards.
- Armor doesn't affect someone trying to touch you, but yet one of the foundations of RM tables is that wearing armor greatly impacts how easy or hard it is to get hit due to the encumbrance of the armor (i.e. this is partly built into the tables).

That's why my idea was to use the martial arts table for all touch maneuvers.  It is consistent with existing rules and solves the problems above.

[Arioch]

It's also an oft-cited problem with RM.   Many people disliked level bonuses - which is why RMSS went to the profession bonuses.  Many also similarly dislike RR's based on level.    Personally I think any future rules should get further away from this idea rather then use them more.

I completely agree with Vroom on this point.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

- It uses a completely different mechanic then martial arts where it should be very similar.

Why? The touch is meant to touch, not cause damage directly. Those are too different foci.

- No matter your martial arts or combat training, it has no effect on your ability to touch someone

Again, different foci for the actions. Martial Arts and Combat training is intended for damaging the target, not touching them. The ONLY Martial Art that MIGHT have relevance would be Martial Arts Sweeps & Throws, which essentially requires the character to grab the target.

The most that I would allow is to allow a +1 per rank of MA Sweeps to be added to the bonus for the Touch Maneuver. But no bonus from Strikes, period.

- Most importantly, using the Med Maneuver table means it's actually FAR harder to touch someone then to hit them (and do damage/critical).

If you think Medium is too difficult, then adjust the difficulty.

Remember, the caster is NOT trying to bash or damage the target, he is trying to access/link to the target's aura to transfer the spell's energy from himself to the target. To me, this SHOULD be more difficult than just whacking somebody with a pointy metal stick.

- Armor doesn't affect someone trying to touch you, but yet one of the foundations of RM tables is that wearing armor greatly impacts how easy or hard it is to get hit due to the encumbrance of the armor (i.e. this is partly built into the tables).

Yes, it is built into the tables. It is built into the target's DB (by affecting his quickness bonus to DB), so armor DOES have an effect. It also has an effect upon any RRs that are required by the target of the touch spell.

Your suggestion of using the attack tables (which is similar to something I proposed near the beginning of this thread, before I thought it through a bit more) adds yet another level of complexity to the whole system.

The problems came from making a false assumption that performing a touch maneuver is the equivalent of making an attack. The two actions have two totally different purposes, and thus should not be sharing the same mechanic.

Using the attack tables also ignores the existing rules already established for performing maneuvers in order to create an alternative use for the attack tables in order to solve a problem that should not be a problem to begin with (performing a touch maneuver is NOT the same as performing an attack, therefore you cannot parry using whatever bonuses are allowed to perform the touch maneuver).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It's also an oft-cited problem with RM.   Many people disliked level bonuses - which is why RMSS went to the profession bonuses.  Many also similarly dislike RR's based on level.    Personally I think any future rules should get further away from this idea rather then use them more.

I completely agree with Vroom on this point.

So do I - but that has nothing to do with this conversation and the realities of the current system versions.

[vroomfogle]

Remember, the caster is NOT trying to bash or damage the target, he is trying to access/link to the target's aura to transfer the spell's energy from himself to the target. To me, this SHOULD be more difficult than just whacking somebody with a pointy metal stick.

Well suffice it to say I disagree. I think a touching maneuver is quite similar to martial arts and it should be easier to touch them then to damage them.   The situation is the same - you have two combatants standing off, dodging, parrying...sounds the same to me.   Now, if you decide that the act of touching to cast a spell is more then just touching (accessing their aura or whatever) then that could be a bit different.  I consider a touch just a touch.   Different strokes, different folks.

I bet that a majority of GM's currently allow one to touch a target with not much effort, or perhaps even no roll at all based on the situation (e.g. approach from behind).   Introducing a new rule that makes it harder to touch someone then to damage them, especially with no way to improve upon it, is taking quite the nerf bat to casters.

Yes, it is built into the tables. It is built into the target's DB (by affecting his quickness bonus to DB), so armor DOES have an effect. It also has an effect upon any RRs that are required by the target of the touch spell.

Not entirely true.  It is partly built into DB (If you have a DB due to Qu to begin with), and partly built into the tables.   

RR = different issue.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Well suffice it to say I disagree.

Then we will have to just agree to disagree...   

[vroomfogle]

I suppose I might be able to agree to that ;-)

[pastaav]

- It uses a completely different mechanic then martial arts where it should be very similar.   
- No matter your martial arts or combat training, it has no effect on your ability to touch someone
- Most importantly, using the Med Maneuver table means it's actually FAR harder to touch someone then to hit them (and do damage/critical), which is backwards.
- Armor doesn't affect someone trying to touch you, but yet one of the foundations of RM tables is that wearing armor greatly impacts how easy or hard it is to get hit due to the encumbrance of the armor (i.e. this is partly built into the tables).

That's why my idea was to use the martial arts table for all touch maneuvers.  It is consistent with existing rules and solves the problems above.

I totally agree.

[Dreven1]

Also as mentioned above, if you want to surprise someone with a touch attack you might be able to use "stalking" or "Slight of hand" maneuver to accomplish this vs. the targets perception.

Sound fun?