Topic: shield bashing

[Marc R]

VE, you're confuzzling the set up here though.

Assuming always 100 OBs

looked at attack table wise:

A large shield bash  = 100LBa

while

A large bull with medium horns ramming = 100MHo>100LBa (With a 100LTr follow up)

I would much prefer to take a 100 OB Large bash attack to a 100 OB medium Horn/Tusk attack that if it succeeds triggers a 100 Large Bash attack that if you're knocked down is followed by a 100 Large Trample attack.

The two attacks are not equal there at all.

Even if you tried to revert it a bit, and said it was a large, hornless cow that makes the ramming attack, with no intention of a follow up trample, while the attacks would seem similar:

100 LBa vs 100Lba

in fact, they are not.

If you check out the "Knockback" rules in CT, the shield bash by a human vs a human is medium vs medium sized attackers, no mod to knockback, but the hornless Cow ram vs Human is Large vs Medium attackers. . .and so would inflict 150% knockback. . .if you use the knockback damage rules, that could make a signifigant damage difference right there.

Another factor, which is more a GM controled call, is that I'd be rather iffy on allowing someone to make a long and fast charge and ram with a large or wall shield at all, while the Cow is almost definitely going to be charging on attack. (At minimum, I'd be applying penalties for attempts to sprint at someone with a wall shield with the intention to ram them).

[vieja escuela]

Sorry, I'm not sure if I've understood what you said. 
Are you saying that you don't think that the size of the attack should be linked to the size of the attacker?

no,  Not nothing of it

[vieja escuela]

You did not understand me.Though I am afraid that I do not understand you completely either. (My English is not very good). What I say to you is that a heifer of 400 pounds is never a large creature, a loot of human had this mass. And  that   physically is impossible that a man with a shield damages the same that a heifer to the load, For physical impossibility. A big bull can overturn a jeep. (It has Happened several times in Spain) in the overturned one of a jeep the horns but the onslaught do not intervene. man walks do it with a shield. Alone I hold that the shield should have his own table with  the gradations of damage according to type of attack and shield. 

[vieja escuela]

And with regard to:  100MHo>100LBa no no no

look 100Lho vs 100l Ba
I am not too much in agreement. the critical in bash different among C and E. and in horn among B And E  in the maximum damage. But in 94 bash  does critical in all the armors whereas the horn does it in 105.
Proved while the horn does more hurt to the light armors, fails very much in the heavy ones. Whereas the bash affects very rapidly the heavy ones and is kept in the falls.
But it is the same thing none of them should be able to be compared to an shield. must do  less I damage the shield. Though it is painful that a bull does more damage to an armor 20 if you cut his horns.
( ?It is a shame but in rolemaster if you  cut the horns of the bull  it  hurts more to  a man with AT 20?)

[Arioch]

Well, if you think that bulls and similar animals should do more damage than shield bashes (and I agree on that) just give them more OB or make their attack a size larger (from Medium to Large), or use the Trample/Stomp attack table for them.

[Marc R]

VE, I was using Creatures & Treasures esqe notation, not math.

> not as larger than, but as the "If this attack succeeds it allows another attack of"

In other words, if a bull makes a charge attack on you, you're talking about a triple threat.

The charge would be a gore (Large Horn/Tusk attack) followed by a ram (Large Ram/Butt/Bash attack) and if it knocked you down an overrun (Large Trample attack).

Even if you eliminate that and just say a Bull capable of flipping over a jeep does a charge on you, but has had it's horns chopped off and has no intention of doing a trample, I would still call it a Large bash, but the Large size of the bull vs man sized would mean it does 150% knockback on critical results. (Check out the combat section at the front of Creatures & Treasures).

I'm not saying that a Bull ramming you and a man hitting you with a large shield are identical, I'm saying that the intelligence of the man, and capability to place the shield to best effect, in some ways moderate the results to being equal. There's a limit to how many actual different tables it's worthwhile to have.

As a counter example, look at the martial arts strikes table.

I could easily justify signifigant variation between punches, kicks, knees, elbows and head butts. . . .but all of them resolve on this table.

Even if that seems to be fairly mild variation.

a 1.5m tall Dwarf weighing 75 kilos with a 100 OB in Martial Arts Strikes.
a 3m tall Troll weighing 430 kilos with a 100 OB in Martial Arts Strikes.

A full OB punch from the dwarf vs a full OB kick from the troll, all use the same table to the same results. . .perhaps not realistic, but there is a point of diminishing returns in adding tables to the system.

[GoblynByte]

Shields are useless.  They smell funny and, quite frankly, dress poorly.  They're bad drivers and have very, very poor table manners.  It'll be a good day when every last one of them is thrown into the ocean to be forgotten forever.

Oh...wait...this is the thread for bashing shields, right?

[vieja escuela]

 GoblynByte .-XDDDD well......... they are very effective.

LordMiller.-And with regard to the troll you are rigth it is not very realistic, but I it give certain advantages. (Of the compani?ns) medium creature vs big creature the parry diminishes 50 %, and (one mine) does not mean that you stop the blow but you prevent it from damaging you. An attack of sweep with a tree might attack the following one

[Marc R]

I concur, but the only variation in the rules as is, would be that the troll would inflict 150% knockback vs man sized on crit results. . .other than that, it's the same table in each instance.

There are a lot of oddities like that in the system, mostly they consist of averaging and grouping to avoid making more tables.

The issue isn't "Are the attacks the same?" in my mind it's "Are the attacks different enough to be worth another table" considering how many other similar-but-not-the-same attacks share tables.

[vieja escuela]

I don't know if it is my fault that I have the disagreeable habit of playing with the pdfs. to separate all the tables of combat, the lists and the rules in three parts. But it seems to me that I don't  erase nothing and  some tables are absent .for example that of ram to the shield it isn?t?

[vieja escuela]

It seems that I lost some page (for the numbers) can you  say to me what page was that of the table of attack with I shield please?

[Arioch]

Which book? Arms Law? Combat Companion? 

[vieja escuela]

 Combat Companion .  I don?t found that table . but I think I can erase with adobe profesional.
 

[Arioch]

I think they use the Bashing attack table

[vieja escuela]

I think  that in the combat stiles said "Shield Bash: (...). The size of the attack is determined by the size of the shield;Target = Small, Normal = Medium, Full =Large, and Wall = Huge. All Shield Bash attacks are made on the Ram/Butt/Bash/ Knockdown table using only half of the style OB. The attack has a fumble range of 01-05. If the character also has the Shield Training option, then the full OB may beused with just a -20 modifier (the offhand penalty) to the style OB.

some of the lost pages where pictures I think they forget put that table.
 

[Dax]

I think  that in the combat stiles said "Shield Bash: (...). The size of the attack is determined by the size of the shield;Target = Small, Normal = Medium, Full =Large, and Wall = Huge. 

This always irritates me: The max damage is based on the shield size ?
So if I attack with a door which I carry around as a shield would it be a Super Large bash then ?
Yes, if I have the size of a troll ...

If a (normal sized) human tries to attack with a wall shield, it would be less effective cause of the shield weight (slower attack).

I still have to make up my mind: Normal human attacks with a wall shield:

Huge damage with a penalty to attack due to slower attack speed

but I tend to:

Large damage with a penalty (without for very strong beings).

[vieja escuela]

you are rigth. this  is ironic, is silly, a man with a shield damaging the same that the collision of an elephant

[Marc R]

The curve is a bit oddly spread. . . . .and I recall now that the last time this came up in game, it resulted in the GM making this call:

Small shields (Targe, Buckler) = Armored Fist Attack Table
Normal Shields = Small Bash
Full Shields = Medium Bash
Wall Shields = Large Bash

With a scale up or down for smaller or larger than man sized combatants.

Which did moderate somewhat that over the top "Huge" wall shield attack. (Then again, a huge bash is more akin to a high end normal weapon table.)

At the time, it seemed to make sense, as a buckler or targe you ""Punch" with, while the other shields are more of a ram or bashing attack. Shrug.