Topic: COSTS!COSTS!COSTS!

[Marc R]

When you increase the number of skills by 4 but only increase DPs by 2, of course there are going to be problems.

um, if you currently have 25 skills, and say 50 DP, and you up that to 100 skills and 87.5 DP using your 1:2 ratio, you are doing roughly what I was doing. . . .the actual ratio matters less than the fact that there's now a lot more DP in play.

Because the "Flat" addition of DP as you add skills actually does lead directly to the sort of deflationary problems being discussed. . .for an example:

if you take RMX, add 10 skills, and 5 DP/LV, you can ignore the new skills and spend those 5 DP per level on original skills from before the addition, it will cause skew.

i.e. a tank fighter, built just using the RMX system + 10 skills from EA and +5/DP level will end up being considerably more powerful than a straight RMX fighter. . .and by "more powerful" I mean measurably and objectively more powerful.

If I'm not mistaken, you'd be gaining the equivalency of an extra level every 7 levels that way. shrug. It's a good off the cuff fix, but It is power inflationary, incredibly so as you increase the size of the skill list.

As to the "Per level" limits on skills. . . .with core RMX you cant "Double rank" all your core professional skills, if you add in more DP, you can double rank one more skill, that's a signifigant gain. . .but that's the paltry gain for arms.

Spell users. . .I know what I'd spend an extra 5DP per level on as a pure caster. . . . (As long as SLA exists, more DP/LV is power inflationary on that factor alone, unless something like rising SLA per rank costs balances it out. . .and how do you raise an SLA cost of 1DP/rank or 2DP/rank by 5%? 10%? . ..with actual costs that low, a rise of 5DP/Lv means 5 or 2.5 more ranks of SLA per level.)




I think you do have a fix for that, if I can read out an answer out of the back and forth between you and Ill.

So say "Climbing" doesn't get split, remaining "Climbing" as the skill set unfolds fourfold and the amount of DP has now gone up 75%. . . .would that mean that the costs of climbing would have to go up 75% to maintain balance?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I think you do have a fix for that, if I can read out an answer out of the back and forth between you and Ill.

So say "Climbing" doesn't get split, remaining "Climbing" as the skill set unfolds fourfold and the amount of DP has now gone up 75%. . . .would that mean that the costs of climbing would have to go up 75% to maintain balance?

Actually, I answered that in response to something you said, and yes, that is the general gist of it. In practice, it will be a little more complicated overall, as ALL of the skills and their costs have to be involved, and the total number of DP involved, along with how the revision does skill pricing as well.


The conversation with illerejug is more about adding skills to an existing skill list, not about the tiered skill-system that we have been discussing.

[Marc R]

I was considering the effects of % rises in cost, and yeah, I agree that would be a problem with incremental increases to skills, it'd be annoying, but it should be workable for a fixed tier, so you only needed to do it once.

It would need to be a signifigant jump though. . .ala going from 40 DP/lv to 80dp/lv. . .if you did 40 to 50 the cost rise wouldn't really work.

i.e. at +100% DP/+100% costs you'd double all skill costs, so it would apply evenly.

But +20% DP/+20% Costs would cause weirdness. . .it would be really bad without rounding, but it would work strangely even with rounding .49 down and .5 up.

like costs of:
1,2,3,4,5
become
1,2,4,5,6

The 1 and 2 costs, even with rounding, don't move until +50% and +25% respectively. . .and since a profession's core professional skills are often 1s and 2s, that would still leave open a problem of inflation.

Be interesting to see how you end up pulling it off actually.

I can see how using something of that sort, Tier I and Tier II characters would remain basicly compatable (or at least, you could use Tier I characters in Tier II games casually).

Not sure how one would work a Tier III that involves categories and skills so that it would give results compatable across to I and II though.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, I already know all of this, which is why I said it was more complicated than the example you gave....

In practice, it will be a little more complicated overall, as ALL of the skills and their costs have to be involved, and the total number of DP involved, along with how the revision does skill pricing as well.

[Marc R]

Sorry, I often oversimplify in examples of points or else every post is 2 pages long (instead of every 3rd one  )

It's certainly an interesting concept. . .I'm eager to see what comes of it.

[markc]

 Sorry if this point was comvered but the threadf seams to have grown by a couple of pages since I looked at it last.

 Most of what I read had to do with the character side of things. IMO if a GM does not use or require the use of many different skills then they should be cut as they do not factor into the game and it lets the PC's "game" the system.

 I am sure you can think of many examples as well as use some of the above examples as points in the above statement.
MDC

[Warl]

When you increase the number of skills by 4 but only increase DPs by 2, of course there are going to be problems. There needs to be a specific ratio of skill costs to DPs gained, otherwise you will end up with all sorts of problems with balance  and other issues.

I personally do give more DP.

I give DP for every stat, But I also restrict the DP use. You can only spend 75% of the DP for a stat on skills that use that stat. Therefore Only 25% of their Total DPs can be spent on anything they want. This gives them enough DPs to get alot of well rounded skills, but prevents them from point dumping into Munchkin skills like All combat weapons and such.

[kedrake]

When you increase the number of skills by 4 but only increase DPs by 2, of course there are going to be problems. There needs to be a specific ratio of skill costs to DPs gained, otherwise you will end up with all sorts of problems with balance  and other issues.

Oh, pardon me, I just a nightmare about bookkeeping.

[Tarek]

The simple way to balance skills in tiers would be to alter the cost of skills by tier.

For example:

Teir 1 to Teir 2, we go from 50 to 100 DP

Teir 1 weapon skills are 1/4, and we still have the same skills. The new skills cost 2/8.

Stalk and Hide (1 skill) is 1/3, and becomes 2 seperate skills still at 1/3.

Trickery at 3/6 becomes trickery, sleight of hand and pick pockets at 2/4 (divide by 3 skills and double DP)

That way you don't really have any more skills to spend on combat, but to develop all three trickery skills costs the same.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The simple way to balance skills in tiers would be to alter the cost of skills by tier.

Yes, that is basically what I had said up above...