Topic: Feeling the pinch...

[runequester]

Id imagine one saving with PDF's is that theres very little cost in continuing to provide it. With books you have to weight whether a new print run will sell well enough or not.

Both distribution forms have their advantages, and ICE seems very realistic about them

[GoblynByte]

Look at it this way:

ICE could have gone the way of many other games and try and climb their way back into the hearts and minds of modern gamers by disrespecting their fan base and designing some new, transparent, simplistic d20 derivative.  Or, even worse, they could have completely thumbed their noses at their fan base and switch over to a completely OGL version of Rolemaster.  Many others made that gamble in a sad attempt to get a slice of the pie.  But ICE didn't.  

When it came time for them to come up with a much needed infusion they decided to honor their fan base and revise a version that was obviously in high demand.  So, not only did they create a better example for themselves in the market, they also showed how devoted they are to the people who have kept the faith for 20+ years.  To top it off, after they published RMC, did they stop printing RMSS materials?  Did they stop printing RMFRP materials?  No.  It's all still in print and actively supported (they answer questions on these forums) even if new products are not being developed at a great speed.  Do you know of any other company that is still actively supporting multiple editions of one game, each of wich has been in use for 10 years or more?

ICE did an absolute service to their fan base in a time when the majority of companies are crapping all over us for the sake of an extra buck.  I think they should be commended and encouraged.  Not dumped on for deciding to focus their stretched resources to one project at a time.

[Inez Hull]

Anybody like me feeling a bit sad about Ironcrown's drive to push RMC, which is after all a tarted up RM2?

I didn't realise RMC was different at all to RM2, I thought it was essentially just a remarket and reprint. What changes were made?

[GoblynByte]

I didn't realise RMC was different at all to RM2, I thought it was essentially just a remarket and reprint. What changes were made?

I think he meant a "sexier" version of the older books.  For the most part RMC is just cleaned up, reorganized, and clarified.

[runequester]

RMC is laid out in a way that makes sense

[Temujin]

It just strikes me as an odd point to start poking for new RMFRP stuff, just after something RMFRPers could use was just released this month.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but seriously:  Combat Companion for RMFRP?  Please.

Combat Companion includes:

3 New Professions - 3 new semi-spell users, the Champion, the Elemental Warrior, and the Venturer will astound you with their martial prowess!

Not RMFRP compatible.

Armor by the Piece Rules - These rules completely change how armor works for Rolemaster.
New Attack and Critical Tables - 19 new, single-page, combat tables (attack and critical) that are designed specifically for use with the new armor rules.

OK, that's new but from my understanding, that also involves dropping Arms Law, Armory and Fantasy Weapons, for a less complete system weapon-wise.

Combat Styles - Rules for building your own combat styles from the ground up, along with a number of interesting examples!

Sounds like duplicating Martial Arts Companion to me and the MAC is very good already on that part, imho.

So essentially, I'd be buying Armor by the Piece rules, with 19 pages of attack tables...  to replace over a hundred page of Arms Law, Armory & Fantasy Weapons.

I may be overly critical, but Armor by the Piece rules which involve dropping the attack tables for more generic ones doesn't seem worth shelling money over.  I'd have to read through the whole book to see how much I can use it to decide whether its worth buying at all.

That's the problem with books produced for both RMC and RMFRP.  At some points, one of the two systems covers a part of the rules already (ie: combat styles in MAC), so you fill a large part of a book with rules that are redundant.

End of rant, apologies to any offended.

[Temujin]

To top it off, after they published RMC, did they stop printing RMSS materials?  Did they stop printing RMFRP materials?  No.  It's all still in print and actively supported (they answer questions on these forums) even if new products are not being developed at a great speed.  Do you know of any other company that is still actively supporting multiple editions of one game, each of wich has been in use for 10 years or more?

Yep, absolutely agree.  That's one of the reason, while I won't bother buying 4th ed despite having played 2nd and 3rd(though got tired of the last one), and I'll definitely look at whatever revision ICE puts up in a few years.

[David Johansen]

I suspect HARP was the first attempt to unite the fan bases but it actually created a third group instead.

All told I stand by my belief that people don't play Rolemaster because they're looking for a simple and elegant game.

As far as RMSS being complete I've got a long list of books I'd like to see.

The Infernal Companion (Demons)
The Divine Companion (Divine Servitors)
The Undead Companion
The Underworld Companion (Theives, Whores, and Pirates)
The Wyrm's Companion
The Oriental Companion
Arcane Realms (or other extra planar companion)
War Law
Creatures and Monsters II

My list for Spacemaster Privateers is at least twice as long.

One reason I hate new editions is that they never seem to cover everything I want before the next one shows up.

[David Johansen]

Incidentally, if I were to write an RMSS or SPAM lite today I'd just list the standard skills at double cost and assume a rank in the skill and the category.  If you wound up with two skills from a category the conversion would be to take that many ranks in other skills from the category.

It's clean, it's simple, it allows as much utility from existing products as is possible and the trimmed list wouldn't be any longer than the one in RMX.  No it's not a perfect solution but it's not a terrible one either.

[markc]

Anybody like me feeling a bit sad about Ironcrown's drive to push RMC, which is after all a tarted up RM2?

I didn't realise RMC was different at all to RM2, I thought it was essentially just a remarket and reprint. What changes were made?

 There are some big changes in the option they provide but I am speaking from the point of view that was what I have been told. A friend on mien just bought the books but I did not have time to read them during our game tonight. But thier is a tread on the RM2/C/X thread that has the answers, so do a search and you will find out.

It just strikes me as an odd point to start poking for new RMFRP stuff, just after something RMFRPers could use was just released this month.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but seriously:  Combat Companion for RMFRP?  Please.

Combat Companion includes:

3 New Professions - 3 new semi-spell users, the Champion, the Elemental Warrior, and the Venturer will astound you with their martial prowess!

Not RMFRP compatible.

Armor by the Piece Rules - These rules completely change how armor works for Rolemaster.
New Attack and Critical Tables - 19 new, single-page, combat tables (attack and critical) that are designed specifically for use with the new armor rules.

OK, that's new but from my understanding, that also involves dropping Arms Law, Armory and Fantasy Weapons, for a less complete system weapon-wise.

Combat Styles - Rules for building your own combat styles from the ground up, along with a number of interesting examples!

Sounds like duplicating Martial Arts Companion to me and the MAC is very good already on that part, imho.

So essentially, I'd be buying Armor by the Piece rules, with 19 pages of attack tables...  to replace over a hundred page of Arms Law, Armory & Fantasy Weapons.

I may be overly critical, but Armor by the Piece rules which involve dropping the attack tables for more generic ones doesn't seem worth shelling money over.  I'd have to read through the whole book to see how much I can use it to decide whether its worth buying at all.

That's the problem with books produced for both RMC and RMFRP.  At some points, one of the two systems covers a part of the rules already (ie: combat styles in MAC), so you fill a large part of a book with rules that are redundant.

End of rant, apologies to any offended.

T,
 I agree that if you have the MAC you might have a reason you do not need it and some of the things presented can drastically change your game. AFAIK, there is going to be RMSS versions of the professions as a free or cheep download. But that is as last I heard it talked about.

 I can also say I to love the MAC. End of story. And if you have a chance to buy it do or you might want to check out the CC and see if you can adapt it to your game.

 I can say that I have played in groups that like simple rules but IMO we generally go back to more complex systems as they can be broken in one way or another. Or the GM does not say "boy that rule should be changed" or "I am going to change this rule since it is dumb to think of things that way".
 But I also realise that every group is not the same. And to prove that I am very interested in how D&D 4e is going to play out. And I can say that we are going to get the test adventure box set and take it for a spin and see what happens. We may like it or we may not but we are going to try it none the less. Hopefully with no illusions or disalusions on our part.

MDC

[GoblynByte]

I suspect HARP was the first attempt to unite the fan bases but it actually created a third group instead.

I don't think HARP was an intent to unite the ICE fan base.  I think it was an attempt to make a system from which non-ICE gamers didn't want to run in terror when the GM whipped it out.

Face it: outside of the normal ICE fan base Rolemaster doesn't have a very good reputation.  Especially these days.  Most peole think that Rolemaster is an overly complex mess enjoyed only by physicists and engineers who enjoy doing triginometry instead of the cross-word puzzle in the morning.  Think I'm wrong?  Ask around.

But ICE probably will come out with a new edition eventually.  And, just like every other edition for every other game ever made, there will be a division of the fan base.  Those that think the new edition is better and those that think there was nothing wrong with the old edition.  Now, the real question is this: will ICE follow its normal pattern and continue to support both RMC and RMSS after a new edition is produced?  Hard to say.  ICE is the only company I've known that would even consider it.

But, in the end, I don't think a new edition will bring the fans together.  Like David said, it'll just create a new group.

[GoblynByte]

Incidentally, I do think that new edition would be a pretty cool thing.  The "new" ICE has some pretty awesome concepts in gaming, evidend in HARP and what I've heard of the Combat Companion, and I would love to see what they would do once the yokes of the old system were thrown off. 

[yammahoper]

It just strikes me as an odd point to start poking for new RMFRP stuff, just after something RMFRPers could use was just released this month.

One size does not fit all.

Debates on complexity could go on forever.  I know what I like in a rpg; flexibility in character gen and a system for resolving any type of mnv that is also flexible and adaptable.  Rules for every situation cannot be created.  In the end, skill bloat is an attempt to create mini rules to cover as many likely situations as possible, with systems such as RM and DnD stressing ease or dificulty of learning via profession.

The trick is how to provide the flexibility and comprehensive mnv system without overbearing complexity.  RM at its core has a great PC development system and an EXCEPTIONAL mnv resolution system, but combat tips the scale with all those 20 column tables, regardless of their format.  I have not seen the armor by the piece rules yet, and being a dedicated user of MAC, I doubt I will soon, but a set of rules that simplifies combat resolution while maintaing the great RM flavor, well, thats gonna work swell.

Hey, I use DnD modules all the time for my RM games.  Maps, NPC's, monsters, etc.  While any rpg source book can be used for any game, this doesn't mean they are made for them and they require work to twist and bend into shape to use, with a result that is often lacking I might add.  The new HARP/RMC/whatever stuff is like this.

Still, I am very happy ICE and team are making new stuff and going forward and more importantly, the new stuff is pretty good.  This bodes well for the future.  I just hope eventual RM is published and supported under one system, along with Space Master and HARP and the Classic Line and any other games ICE can invent and put out and sell and be successful at.  I believe this is going to take a long time because ICE is so small. 

Ok, I am doing it again, kicking and screaming at this dead horse.  Please forgive me.  I am done.

lynn

[pastaav]

Well I think it is pretty simple...neither RM2 reformated or RMFRP reformated give enough sales to pay the people that does the hard work of redoing the books. Yet the RM fans are awesome and a number of veteran GMs decided to reformate RM2 into RMC for free since they loved the system.

ICE would be silly to reject such a offer and is now earning money from selling RMC...the downside is that ICE as a small company can not sustain more development than SHARP and the RMC core books at the same time. That is why the products for RMFRP, HARP and Cyradon has been lacking.

In the long run things will be better since the added products will give ICE funds to develop more material for both RMC and RMFRP.

As a side note I think that ICE is in for a sales boost soon. SHARP is given to give ICE lots of attention and pretty many of us regulars are burnt from waiting collector version of HARP. I doubt I am alone in restricting my purchase of ICE materials until I get the HARP book in my hand....

[croakerdogboy]

But you're talking about what you want.  Not what will make the company money.  Those are two very different beasts.

Hmm. I could be wrong but it seems to me that I am also a customer. And I spend money. I could be wrong, but I have a hard time believing that I am some sort of rare bird. I think it is more a case of not being the squeaky wheel.

It's sort of like computer games. I liked Jagged Alliance 2, X-Com, Fallout and Silent Storm. Now all of these games are considered classic by the industry, but they didn't spawn imitation. What did was real-time strategy, and first person shooters. I admit I do not care much for either of these genres. But what I don't get is why, if the above games are classic, is nothing made similar now.

Same thing here. If you go on ebay and look at the prices of the RMSS companions etc, they are going for a fortune. They are also difficult to get due to the number of bidders. I fail to believe that these people who are paying 60 dollars for the Martial Arts Companion  are doing it simply for collecting. I think they are wanting to use the rules that they couldn't easily come by before the age of the internet.

I grew up with one book store in my whole area. I bought what they offered when it became available, and was shocked when I discovered the volume of stuff that I never had access to. I have been earnestly trying to fill in gaps in my favorite systems, and gaming the whole time. But I buy very little new material. Mainly because I am disappointed most of the time.

[croakerdogboy]

With the exception of the costs involved in printing, a PDF costs exactly as much to produce as a print book. There are the fees for the authors, the artists, the pagemaking and layout, etc...

What I meant, if not what I said, is that art, especially the volume of art that is common in todays game books, is a luxury not a necessity. And for that matter, if the sourcebook is written in open office, or even a text file, it could sit on a 486 and still be available for download. How much new overhead would be in supplying that.

Actually a text document would look a lot like the old gamebooks. Anyway, I am going to an extreme to try to prove a point. If a company were to focus on making books for it's flagship line (whichever system that would be), it could still throw a % to an author who supplies new material for a system they own, but maybe don't push. While this is not near the income generated from their main branch, it may keep the lights on for a day or two every month.

Now, I freely admit my complete and total ignorance of the cost/benefit mechanics for a gaming company (or almost any other corporate entity for that matter) so I may just so out in left field that everyone can have a good laugh at my expense. But I wanted to be clear on my thoughts.

[Forkbeard]

On the subject of merging rule systems, or introducing new rule systems....

I'm all for it myself, so long as you can convert characters from one system to another. In other words a conversion process is thought about and actually developed alongside the system.

This would entice gamers of older systems to come on board and at least try it out.

If on the other hand each and every GM is forced to make up some conversion rules... forget about it.

Obviously RMSS to RMC would be a bit of a problem, but going forward if RMII had clear RMSS conversion then more people might have jumped ship and we wouldn't be needing this debate.

Perhaps it was because I used all the companions with RM2, but the idea that RM2/RMC is less complex than RMSS seems a little odd.

Learning rule systems, familiarising players with those rules and ironing out all the blemishes is hard graft and it detracts from the main point of RPG... the clues in the title. It's not Rules Playing Game as it often can be these days

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Well I think it is pretty simple...neither RM2 reformated or RMFRP reformated give enough sales to pay the people that does the hard work of redoing the books. Yet the RM fans are awesome and a number of veteran GMs decided to reformate RM2 into RMC for free since they loved the system.

Actually I believe the RMC team did receive some modest remuneration for their efforts.

ICE would be silly to reject such a offer and is now earning money from selling RMC...the downside is that ICE as a small company can not sustain more development than SHARP and the RMC core books at the same time. That is why the products for RMFRP, HARP and Cyradon has been lacking.

Yes, there's only so many hours in the day that are available for writing, editing, layout, etc., and that applies to the ICE staff and the freelancers as well.

As a side note I think that ICE is in for a sales boost soon. SHARP is given to give ICE lots of attention and pretty many of us regulars are burnt from waiting collector version of HARP. I doubt I am alone in restricting my purchase of ICE materials until I get the HARP book in my hand....

As the limited editions appear to be turning up, hopefully you'll be able to lift your restrictions on buying new products soon!

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

What I meant, if not what I said, is that art, especially the volume of art that is common in todays game books, is a luxury not a necessity.

Nevertheless art is still needed to show what new monsters look like, equipment and treasures, give impressions of settings, etc.

And for that matter, if the sourcebook is written in open office, or even a text file, it could sit on a 486 and still be available for download. How much new overhead would be in supplying that.

Not much. But without good layout, appropriate art, effective editing, the package won't sell beyond the hardcore fans - and won't be suitable for getting into distribution because the retailers won't be interested in carrying something that looks like it was thrown together in an evening.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[GoblynByte]

Hmm. I could be wrong but it seems to me that I am also a customer. And I spend money. I could be wrong, but I have a hard time believing that I am some sort of rare bird. I think it is more a case of not being the squeaky wheel.

I didn't mean to suggest you were alone in your desires, just that your (and mine) desires aren't at the top of the food chain at these days.  The fact that ICE isn't the top seller of RPGs is proof of that.  Sure there is something to be said for exposure and accessibility, but that's the point.  They needed to get a higher profile game that was more accessible to new (and old) gamers.  RMC was tapping into all those gamers that left "active status" because they didn't like the new path of RMSS.  It was a (relatively) inexpensive and fast way of getting an infusion of exposure (not just money).

Same thing here. If you go on ebay and look at the prices of the RMSS companions etc, they are going for a fortune. They are also difficult to get due to the number of bidders. I fail to believe that these people who are paying 60 dollars for the Martial Arts Companion  are doing it simply for collecting. I think they are wanting to use the rules that they couldn't easily come by before the age of the internet.

Again, that's the point.  The out of print RM2 materials were quite popular and going for a lot of money on auction sites.  And ICE wasn't getting a dime off those sales.  So why not reproduce all that old material in a fancy new package and get some scratch for properties they own?  Seems like a no-brainer to me.