Topic: Feeling the pinch...

[Forkbeard]

Anybody like me feeling a bit sad about Ironcrown's drive to push RMC, which is after all a tarted up RM2?

I'm sure this topic has been done to death, and I apologise for racking it up again.

I switched over to RMSS from RM2 (and USS), I re-wrote heaps of software, new spreadsheets, made everyone re-train etc... and literally within a few months (okay maybe a year or so)... Ironcrown were pushing RMC.

Very disappointing.

Anybody else want to scream?!?

[Grinnen Baeritt]

To a degree yes.

From a business point of view, ICE needed a new product, one that people already liked.

There has always been a demand for a re-hashed RM2. And that is basically what has happened.

I'd have preferred an RMSS/RMFP evolution (one that dealt with some of the problems) rather than going in several different directions.

Unifiying RMSS with SM:P would have been a good start...

[bottg]

We still play RM2 with a real mish-mash of companion rules, houserules etc.  But i can see the need for a revised and cleaned up version, both for existing players and new blood.
I think when i next start a rolemaster fantasy campaign, i will use RM2.  There will be a bit of surprise over the lack of stunned man etc, but they will get used to it!

[Forkbeard]

My biggest regret was not developing my own rules. I know RMSS has considerable depth, but the amount of time I've wasted writing software to support it... I could have easily developed something more streamlined.

The number of exceptions and bizarre tables that lack formula equivalents...

The time it takes to run through even a small amount of combat or spell casting.

I started to knock up a flowchat of the calculations for spell casting, even with 8pt fonts and fairly small Visio flowchart elements, it's big

Still, compared to D&D or some such thing, Rolemaster wins hands down. You feel as if the complexity prevents too much player manipulation of the rules. It doesn't become quite so stagnant as it would if it were simple. The players tend to relax and just play it, rather than trying to work out how to maximise their chances of success

[markc]

 First I would liek to say that I moderate for free on ICE's website so as to provide no illusions.

 I like RMSS over RM2/C/X and for that matter SM:P over SM2. But quite a few people out thier love there RM2 so as I understand it ICE decided to clean up a system that quite a few people loved and were willing to fork over $ for. As far as I know ICE has not abandon the line but has said some future products will have rules for both systems. I can say that the Combat Companion does have rules for both RMSS and RMC/2/X that I think many people will use.

 Right now I am a player in a couple of groups but when I GM again I plan on using RMSS and SM:P as the system I use, love and have not seen a better system out there. 

MDC

[yammahoper]

Anybody like me feeling a bit sad about Ironcrown's drive to push RMC, which is after all a tarted up RM2?

I'm sure this topic has been done to death, and I apologise for racking it up again.

I switched over to RMSS from RM2 (and USS), I re-wrote heaps of software, new spreadsheets, made everyone re-train etc... and literally within a few months (okay maybe a year or so)... Ironcrown were pushing RMC.

Very disappointing.

Anybody else want to scream?!?

Don't worry, in time you shall grow quite tired from all the screaming, specially with the massive pro RM2 crowd on board here.  Then you can settle into a deep resentment mollified by constant attempts at positive thinking.  I am here if you need me.

The flux like state of the RM titles is what it is, the crazy scheme the new ICE is stuck with as it rebuilds a fan base and tries to be successful. 

Remember;

always look on the bright side of life...da dum, da dum, da dum da dum da dum.

...with the quality materials ICE has relesed since its reorganizing under mjornowhatsitscalled (the new name of the company. They operate under the old Iron Crown Enterprises name), even with a new game system in HARP, I believe the game is in very good hands.  Some years down the road is a talk of a new version that will finally unite the seperate and less than equal camps of RM2/RMSS/RMFRP.  That is what I am waiting for.  I will NOT retrograde back to the early 80's, yet I cannot shake my love for this silly game (and recently I have tried in ernest, joining several campaigns in other systems, but all lack the zing of RM).  Normally this is when I would convert my fellow players to RM.  I have done it MANY times.  But I have no desire to explain to some noob what the options mean if I should direct them to this site...so I just wait.  Change is coming.

Then maybe I will scream some more

lynn

[Forkbeard]

Once again, many thanks for the posts.

I too would like to see a convergence, but then again if that means introducing some of the elements of RM2 I hated then perhaps not.

I prefer RMSS, which is why I switched I suppose. I wanted to simplify (if that's possible with RM) and throw away all that searching through the RM Companions. The USS really killed it for me (which was in RMCVI I think). I know all those RM Companion extras were option, but I went mad and implemented the Unified Skill System (I think that was what it was called). It basically meant none of the modules contained any character data that matched. I ended up multiplying the OBs by around 1.2 to get something close.

We live and learn... or perhaps we don't. No doubt I'll be messing with some new RM system just before they decide to go back to RMSS

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The current plan (and be aware that plans can ALWAYS change!!!) is that in a few years, we will revise RM. During this revision, we are going to attempt to produce something that will appeal to both RM2/C gamers and RMSS/FRP gamers.

Of all of it, the biggest trick is going to be the skill system, as that is what is really different between the 2 versions.

The current plan is for the skill system to have 3 tiers, each tier representing a specific number of skills (and subsequently a specific number of DP gained each level, not based on stats), with the largest tier being as close to the RMFRP skill system as we can make it.

At least that is the current plan....

[Forkbeard]

Or... you could base development on things we see in the real world, i.e. effort, ability and of course money.

Sounds odd?!?

Not really, money is gained from adventuring, which can be spent on books and tutors. Ability is reflected in stats and previous development. Effort means less time to adventure and also the cost of living whilst you learn.

Radical, but possible.

[David Johansen]

Just give xp for money spent on training at a rate of 1gp = 1 week = 10 xp.

Anyhow, I'm done screaming and moved on to bitter sniping.  I will admit that it's pretty much impossible to produce an RMSS based lite version which is 100% compatible.

I've been looking at it for years and it's like the designers deliberately undermined every possible way you could simplify it and maintain compatability.

And yes, in making a lite version of a game it is necessary to be compatible with the material in the books you're trying to sell.

All told I still think the RM2 crowd dramatically overstate the difficulty of RMSS and that RMSS is by far the superior version of the game.  But then none of that has stopped me from working on developing my own game systems.

[GoblynByte]

Radical, but possible.

Dude, that's not as radical as you think...Original D&D gave XP for gold and treasure.

[runequester]

Ive mostly settled on RMFRP as the way to go, since it does seem like a objectively more complete and thorough system. RMC has a lot of charm, but it also has a lot of strange points, that Im not as keen on.

It might be different if you played it back when.. I still love the original Stormbringer despite its strange and unbalanced mechanics, so maybe its just age

I think ICE needs to do what most people will buy, which might be RMC books. The FRP line seems pretty complete, so I can round out the collection quietly and have a blast gaming.

Then we'll see what the revision will bring

[Marc R]

I suspect you could get there via 2 methods:

DP as ExP (If you hand out DP and level every say 40, or 50)

Goal Based ExP (Make training a goal, can be combined with above)

But either way the concept of "How many DP" really seems to be in relation to level. . .if you're earning DP/level then you need to adjust how many to the situation, even if that "How many" is merely the averege number you adjust up/down based on actions like stats or training. If you do DP advancement, you need to benchmark how many DP = a level for obvious reasons.

Neither factor there really mandates one version over the other. . . .I suspect that one thing Tim said up there becomes important; the ability to set 3 levels of skill complexity. . .you can build RMX up to RMFRP skill complexity, but it's hard to devolve RMFRP down to RMX. . .I suspect that the issue raised is not the superiority or inferiority of RMFRPs skill system, just the very inflexability to modification DJ pointed out.

Then again, I find the variations between RMC, RMFRP and HARP way overblown. . .there's very little published material from any of those three systems that I've seen that I'd have a terrible difficulty adapting from one to the other. The three are at least as similar to each other as D&D, AD&D and D20 are, with most of the changes being cosmetic, or a modest increase or decrease in detail/complexity.

I did understand the resentment the FRP end felt as ICE devoted it's attention to re-doing the core RM2 books. Though I know there is new material in there an RMFRPer might like, it's mostly a re-do of RM2 books they already own and perhaps are disclined to re-purchase. . .which created a long gap of waiting for anything they wanted to buy. On the other hand, starting with the Combat Companion, it seems to be all new material usable with both systems.

It just strikes me as an odd point to start poking for new RMFRP stuff, just after something RMFRPers could use was just released this month.

[magritte@shaw.ca]

Just give xp for money spent on training at a rate of 1gp = 1 week = 10 xp.

I actually did that in a sense.  The characters in my campaign could enroll in the University and gain experience points over time when they weren't playing by attending classes and doing research.  It wasn't a simple x gold = x experience, it depended on how well they did in their classes which was influenced by their attributes and dice rolls.  The xp granted weren't huge and anyone over 5th level was considered to have graduated, though.

[GoblynByte]

I personally don't feel that RMSS/FRP can survive as a flagship system in any truly viable way in the current RPG climate.  HARP is far more likely to fit what most active gamers are looking for these days as it is most similar to what is generally available and popular.  I think that we all need to acknowledge that what is wanted by the general gaming masses is very differen than it was a decade ago.  The complexity of RMSS wasn't even that well received by those outside Rolemaster circles when it was introduced.  I think its a stretch to expect it to be widely accepted now.  And ICE needs something that is widly accepted if they're going to survive.  RMC was a quick way of doing that and had the added benefit of bringing a lot of gamers back into actively buying books.

[croakerdogboy]

I think that we all need to acknowledge that what is wanted by the general gaming masses is very differen than it was a decade ago

That's true. They are stepping more towards complexity. I remember when Magic the Gathering came out. I used to complain to all that would listen that RPG's were dying with Magic's popularity. It seemed I was right.

Now 20 years ago, the rules were complex. They read like a phone book and tried to cover every conceivable eventuality in specific terms. And you know what? I loved them. I still have them, still play them. And the gaming group I have (which consists of other programmers) are being introduced to them for the first time.

One guy that is in my group played Shadowrun and D&D (new D20 type) for years, but wasn't too enthused one way or the other. Then we started playing Aftermath, and then I introduced him to RMSS, and he was blown away.

Thing is, there may be masses that yearn for simplicity, no adventures, etc etc. But in this day and computer age it seems that it would be a simple task to put out more complex product for those of us who like it. A pdf costs little to produce and even less to market and sell. Even if there never was a print book for the ruleset, it would still exist. And that would be enough for me.

[GoblynByte]

Thing is, there may be masses that yearn for simplicity, no adventures, etc etc. But in this day and computer age it seems that it would be a simple task to put out more complex product for those of us who like it. A pdf costs little to produce and even less to market and sell. Even if there never was a print book for the ruleset, it would still exist. And that would be enough for me.

But you're talking about what you want.  Not what will make the company money.  Those are two very different beasts.

[runequester]

The masses dont yearn for simplicity in RPG's.

The masses yearn for stuff they can buy.

The RPG's that make the "big" market today are all rather complex. D&D (try running a level 15 game and Rolemaster will look like eating cake by comparison), GURPS, Exalted.
If you go into a Borders or B&N (in the US anyways), those are the games you are likely to find, all crunchy and complex games.

There's plenty of market for simple, quick games (Runequest is doing pretty well, as is True20 and various others) but its not the market default.

[magritte@shaw.ca]

Pen 'n paper gaming is a niche hobby played by people who are serious about gaming in one way or another.  Some would be seriously into the crunchy, complex games, while I think others focus on the cooperative storytelling and LARP end of things.  Roleplaying as a hobby has never really lent itself to casual play and as it has declined in popularity since the '80s (my fifteen year old nephew had never heard of Dungeons & Dragons), that trait is accentuated.

I have a suspicion there are far more people playing d20-based computer games than pen 'n paper.  I suppose this is why WOTC is trying to make 4e computer-friendly.  It's not a bad idea to a degree (and I think an RM-based computer game similar to Neverwinter Nights would be fantastic), but pen 'n paper and computer rules simply have to be different to some degree.  There are too many things where judgement is required and a computer just can't work, where you need to improvise dialog or have illusion spells. 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

A pdf costs little to produce and even less to market and sell.

I'm sorry, but that statement is, IMO, completely wrong.

With the exception of the costs involved in printing, a PDF costs exactly as much to produce as a print book. There are the fees for the authors, the artists, the pagemaking and layout, etc...

And it doesn't matter if your product is print or PDF, the costs for marketing are the same for both.

As for selling, well, I would say a PDF costs more to sell, but it is more of a tossup. When a print book is sold, you are charged shipping, so the company doesn't pay for that. However, the company does have to pay the overhead for packaging it.

PDFs on the other hand, cost for the webspace they take up and the bandwidth usage that is required for downloading them.