Author Topic: What's the goal of training packages?  (Read 10955 times)

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Offline pastaav

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Re: What's the goal of training packages?
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2008, 02:11:23 AM »
I have written some about the nature of TPs discounts before in the thread http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=52.0
Might be worth to check out.

The most important part is probably
Quote
If a character is killed and the player make a replacement one, the time aspect does not matter and the player can certainly argue that has been labourer, detective, diplomat etc. Making such list of employments is a great help for the GM...that is why the pricing policy is bad in practice even while the theory is nice.

Since then many discussions has passed and I have changed opinion to some degree. I no longer think that the TPs-give-discounts idea is a nice one, my current thought is that the TP discount is a very bad idea even in theory. The number of presented TPs are so many that any character concept will find one lifetime TP and a number of vocational TPs that only include wanted skills so the "discount because some skills aren't interesting for the character" is not a convincing argument. In practice the replacement character will have a discount for free.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 02:16:52 AM by pastaav »
/Pa Staav

Offline markc

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Re: What's the goal of training packages?
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2008, 02:55:31 AM »
pastaav,
 I agree that your point above is a way to abuse the system. And IMO should be removed from the PC's replacement charcter building options.

 Also an argument can be made that a replacement PC has not had as much hard experience in the "field" per say so starts at a lower level or has fewer DP's to work with. IMO the level rules are for "adventureer" advancment and non adventurers may not get stat gains and other benifts from leveling up. But that is a house rule not an offical rule or oponion.

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Offline Marc R

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Re: What's the goal of training packages?
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2008, 06:30:51 AM »
I've said this in another context, but I'll say it again.

Across all of RM's versions, almost all of the "Problem" areas that people complain about or discuss here on the boards are related:

RM2 Similar Skills
RMSS Category Skills
Skill Categories
Level Bonuses
Training Package discounts
Flat cost Adolecence Packages

All of them relate in one way or another to getting bonuses to related skills for a discount, or for free. . .and all of them seem to end up causing variations of the same problems. In an accounting heavy system like RM these all seem like common sense good ideas, but mostly they bend or break the system or logic. (Some far worse than others)
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Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: What's the goal of training packages?
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2008, 07:53:44 AM »
Back to the proliferation of Training packages and what they are used for.

The most annoying thing about training packages is that they often don't tie in with new supplements when they are released, and then you have to manually work them out yourself.

Case in point. Construct Companion. No costs at all....

You can find them at: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item182

Training Packages started as a RMSS means of adding more roundedness to characters, inspired by Arms Companion and probably Warhammer careers progression. Once the crucial breakthrough was made of attaching new spell lists to TPs, it became clear that many RM2 professions could be boiled down to a single new spell list and be reincarnated as a TP. It was also clear to the Old ICE that TPs quickly became the "professions" of RMSS/FRP in terms of the rules crunch that made people buy the new books (RM2 Companions were bought because of the new professions in them, TPs filled the same role given that profession proliferation was being stamped on.)

The disaster of the TPs was that the old ICE kept the secret formula for costing them to themselves and one Editor would arbitrarily change it, so this became an editing nightmare as the number of professions steadily increased and the TPs exploded in number.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Offline smug

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Re: What's the goal of training packages?
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2008, 08:47:28 AM »
Back to the proliferation of Training packages and what they are used for.

The most annoying thing about training packages is that they often don't tie in with new supplements when they are released, and then you have to manually work them out yourself.

Case in point. Construct Companion. No costs at all....

You can find them at: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item182

Training Packages started as a RMSS means of adding more roundedness to characters, inspired by Arms Companion and probably Warhammer careers progression. Once the crucial breakthrough was made of attaching new spell lists to TPs, it became clear that many RM2 professions could be boiled down to a single new spell list and be reincarnated as a TP. It was also clear to the Old ICE that TPs quickly became the "professions" of RMSS/FRP in terms of the rules crunch that made people buy the new books (RM2 Companions were bought because of the new professions in them, TPs filled the same role given that profession proliferation was being stamped on.)

The disaster of the TPs was that the old ICE kept the secret formula for costing them to themselves and one Editor would arbitrarily change it, so this became an editing nightmare as the number of professions steadily increased and the TPs exploded in number.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

You could only replace an RM2 profession with a TP and some spell lists where it had the same skill costs as an existing profession, though, at least if you keep (as I do) the idea of professions as aptitude templates sancrosanct, because TPs are a choice that can be made every time you have DPs and although the total cost of the TP is fixed for your aptitude template, if you have them as an alternative to a profusion of professions then the underlying variety in character aptitudes no longer exists. For me, that's a big deal (and that's why, for me, TPs aren't an alternative to professions). Furthermore, although superficially it looks like you can just stick some new spell lists plus the availability of a TP, that does commit to buying the basket of skills in the TP wheras an aptitude template/profession is about how much they'd cost you if you wanted them; the TP is about synergies when you develop skills at the same time and the profession about your ability to learn them at any time.

Some spell-using professions, of course, are really just differentiated by spells lists and a few skill costs, in which case, sure, they can be "As X apart from these skills and these spell lists" as shorthand.

I guess that my point is that you may have the right of the ICE reasoning (or at least the reasoning on the part of a significant fraction or majority of the ICE people of the time) but I think that, in addition to the other problems that people have with TPs, that underlying reasoning is, itself, mistaken. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that I am representative -- while many other people, like me, didn't move to RMSS/FRP, there are presumably many reasons for that -- but the idea that professions reflect aptitudes (and the consequent fact that there ought to be many, many of them) has always been a key attraction of RM for me.

For myself, the existence of additional professions wasn't the primary motivation to buy RM Companions, although it was a good part of the motivation. After all, one doesn't create new characters that often, compared to how often one might use some of the rules options, for that to be the main attractiion. Some of them were good additions to the game (the pre-existing core MM rules on running, for example, really didn't make sense and the optional replacement was much better; the new language rules from one of the companions were also welcome, plus a whole host of other examples and also other examples that were interesting to read but which I never planned to use).