Topic: RM..without magic

[runequester]

So I have an idea for a campaign setting..

Basically, sword and sorcery...with no sorcery. (Sword&Will?)
"monsters" are either normal animals, or animals out of history (dinosaurs and weird ice age mammals... yay).
They can appear in interesting situations of course.. the evil emperor has a pack of black lions ready to devour anyone that threaten him.
A prehistoric cavebear is rampaging the countryside maiming cattle and farmers alike

Likewise, its all about the humans. Empires, duchies, strange cults, noble barbarians, animal-skinned tribes, cannibal hordes... so many things to do.



So.. tell me about Rolemaster without magic.. theres a few non-magic using professions. Any ideas for how to make things like bards and rangers work without spells ?

[smug]

For pre-existing sourcebooks, there were some genre books for RM2 that wouldn't have had magic (At Rapier's Point, I think that Robin Hood lacked (or could have had it removed easily enough) magic and the Outlaw-type one in the Wild West would have, too). RMSS's Pulp supplement, if I remember right, only had magic as an option (and Black Ops probably didn't have it) and those, I think, had professions in them.

For Ranger without spells, in RM2 there's a Bounty Hunter profession in one of the companions (RMCII or RMCIII, I think) that I prefer to Ranger anyhow. Wouldn't be surprised if there's something sort of bardlike, too, although I don't remember it offhand.

[PiXeL01]

In the Companions there were a lot of none magic user professions. It had everything from the barbarian (comp I) to the Bounty Hunter (comp III), to Cavalier (III) to leader,craftman and so forth. They were all modified base professions as smug already pointed out.

RM without magic is possible. Just throw Spell Law over the right shoulder and you are there. Oriental Companion did does include rules on Oriental magic, but you can choose to ignore that and like Rapier`s point you can get that in the ICE shop.

[RandalThor]

In the School of Hard Knocks for RMFRP they give you 3 good non-spell users: The Barbarian, The Outrider, & The Swashbuckler. All are great for a setting like the one you are suggesting. I like it, it sort of sounds like Conan without Thulsa Doom (though I do like Thulsa Doom  ).

[Arioch]

Like Randal said the SoHK has four interesting non users professions (add the sage to the three listed by him  ), I think that with them plus the "core" non user professions you can do every non casting character you can think of.
One thing you should keep in mind is that RM without healing magic is really dangerous! Combat will easly leave your character crippled (if not dead) and even 1 hp/rnd of bleeding can be life threatening...

[munchy]

Definitely works as the others pointed out. You just have to put some thought into healing and danger of the game. On the other hand, as the others mentioned already, a lot of the sourcebooks don't offer healing spells in their setting. Makes combat A LOT more dangerous and realistic. Just something you have to keep in mind when setting up encounters. IMHO.

Ups, completely ignored Arioch's post there, sorry. So, totally agree with him on the healing matter then!

[runequester]

I'll propably still allow herbs, just to keep people reasonably alive

Yu can still have evil cults. In fact, they'll propably be even scarier because the players will ultimately know that they are sacrificing people for no gain whatsoever, other than their delusions.

[twh]

I'm running a no-magic RMC campaign right now.  Technically, it's "very low magic" since such things do exist and the PCs will eventually encounter them.  The magic will be my own mash-up of Arcane magic, based on my mythos.

The lack of healing magic gets noticed, just ask the fighters in my group, but the healing arts are more advanced than in a prototypical Medieval setting to make up for that.  There are hospitals, and herbs are available.

Now, when I say herbs are available I don't mean the PCs are running around with a pouch full of mirenna berries and such.  They have bandages with pre-applied poultices that help to staunch 5+ points of bleeding, provide antibiotics, and accelerate healing.  A hurt PC will still be recovering for a while, he just won't be dead.

And such things are not cheap.  And I'm not running a GP-oriented campaign.  The PCs are spending copper.  The PC who is a squire has seen silver money, but he currently doesn't have any (being the equivalent of the starving college student), though he has more copper than the others.  So the supplies needed to keep themselves alive will keep the PCs counting their pennies.

There have been a couple of minor grumbles about me not running a "regular" fantasy campaign but it has not detracted from our having fun.  They are getting used to the idea.  And I'm using the "No-Profession" option; you define your character by what you do.

So far it's been an interesting diversion from the "regular" way.  I don't have anything against that, being a fan of magic-using characters myself, I just wanted to try something different and avoid the usual stereotypes.

An important part of this is that I'm keeping things fluid.  I just introduced AbtP and the combat system from Combat Companion, some elements of SPAR, and a few other tweaks.  (When I introduced armor prices from Chivalry & Sorcery, one guy almost fainted.)  Point is, I'm listening close to the players about what's working and what's not, and adjusting how I run things accordingly--within reason.  Based on some of their comments I may introduce some magic earlier than I had planned, but it will be a small tweak; suddenly dropping Spell Law on the table just would not fit the game world.

For my own motivation, my choices were inspired by what I've seen as some of the trappings of fantasy being used as substitutes for a good story.  Those things--high magic, demons walking the earth--are not needed.  Nothing wrong with them, but it's the story behind them that makes the difference.

Two analogies:  Star Trek and James Bond.  The crew of whichever Enterprise is currently sailing has an entire galaxy to explore, and what do the writers always fall back on?  Time travel.  I want to puke.  It's a complete lack of imagination to not be able to come up with a story in the present.

James Bond (pre Daniel Craig) faces the worst of the worst of humankind, the fancy gadgets and impossible evil plots just obscure the fact that there's no real story underneath.  An opponent that diabolical doesn't need a fleet of space shuttles or an island-sized home base, he should be scary enough all by himself.  (If you like Bond, you're far better off reading the books.)

To be fair, if those stories actually had a story I probably would not be complaining about the other stuff.  Either way, it's the story.  So, let's have a fantasy campaign with some story.  Now, I've set myself up for a serious workload.  I'm having to work harder than if we were doing dungeon crawls.  But, I think it will work out well.

This post wound up a lot longer than I intended.  I hope some of it helps.  Does being a blowhole make me a better GM, or worse?

[yammahoper]

Does being a blowhole make me a better GM, or worse?

Probably better.

lynn

[Old Man]

Years ago a friend of mine (not on these boards AFAIK) ran a terrific Robin Hood-based RM campaign. We had a variety of non-caster types and lots of fun. As expected, most if not all of the opponents were other humans.

Ciao,
Old Man
aka Michael of Renne

[Warl]

just as a suggestion. The non-magic user classes (Arms Classes) are really all you need. Any class can be customed to what ever "archetype" you want easily Through Sklls.

Want a ranger eh? Okay make a Rogue or a Fighter and Give him tracking and Survival skills ,woodland lore and animal lore and animal handling skills.  (I think the Rogue might work best as they have better costs for Subterfuge, tracking and Survival skills)

Want a Barbarian? Just make a Fighter limited to certain weapons, Give him wilderness and survival skills. Limit what Armors he has access to.

A bard eh?
Again Use the Rogue or even the Thief profession and just focus on social skills, Instruments and subterfuge.

You can even Easily rearrange son of the level bonuses to better apply to what your trying to make for the player.

The Limitations are not the available professions, it's the imagination. Role master is a More of a skill based System so USE the skills to make your profession.  If you HAVE to have a specific profession CALLED what you want it to be in order for it to work, then your limiting your vision.

[Fornitus]

 I always try to keep magic and mythical monsters to a absoulet minimum. It increases the realism of the story. I try to make sure magic is NOT the focus of the scenario. It always works out better that way.

[smug]

Looked again at the Bounty Hunter profession. I like it a lot (I never liked the fact that rangers, the default outdoorsmen/women/whatever are spell-users, either in AD&D or in RM); you can, as Warl says, use a Rogue but I prefer the Bounty Hunter (despite its name; it should be called something better, like 'ranger').

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Encountering magic & monsters in a setting that they aren't expected can be fun but you don't need to let the players have access to magic..or make it dangerous to use if you do (e.g Pulp and Cthulhu).

Healing rates for non-magic games can be rough, I'd suggest a fate point system and widespread herb use.

For modern games modern drugs and treatments are fairly well the equivilent of magic...

[croakerdogboy]

I know we have been having fun with our CyberHobbit campaign.

[Balhirath]

just as a suggestion. The non-magic user classes (Arms Classes) are really all you need. Any class can be customed to what ever "archetype" you want easily Through Sklls.

Want a ranger eh? Okay make a Rogue or a Fighter and Give him tracking and Survival skills ,woodland lore and animal lore and animal handling skills.  (I think the Rogue might work best as they have better costs for Subterfuge, tracking and Survival skills)

Want a Barbarian? Just make a Fighter limited to certain weapons, Give him wilderness and survival skills. Limit what Armors he has access to.

A bard eh?
Again Use the Rogue or even the Thief profession and just focus on social skills, Instruments and subterfuge.

You can even Easily rearrange son of the level bonuses to better apply to what your trying to make for the player.

The Limitations are not the available professions, it's the imagination. Role master is a More of a skill based System so USE the skills to make your profession.  If you HAVE to have a specific profession CALLED what you want it to be in order for it to work, then your limiting your vision.

I think that companion V have some excellent rules for that