Author Topic: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion  (Read 4652 times)

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Offline Schwarz

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Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« on: January 14, 2008, 03:22:47 PM »
One of my player chose an Elemental Priest, while looking for a familiar for him i noticed that there are no small creatures with animal intelligence in the Creatures section.

While i do understand that animals corrupted to over 50% count as elementals in regard to the spells, i did wonder if this was intended as the only way to get an elemental familiar. I have also noticed that some of the creatures have the (IQ) stat missing.

pg 66 Arctic Fox and Burrowing Beetle has an Outlook, but no (IQ)
pg 68 Fire Lizard has the (IQ) missing too
pg 69 Sea Salamander has no (IQ) stated either

There is no information which printing run that book is from (i assume first).

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 03:36:23 PM »
One of my players once did an air-priest and I had the same problem.
I've assumed that all the elemental animals (artic fox, fire lizard, etc...) of the book have animal intelligence and I allowed the priest to keep an elemental whispling as a familiar (even if it has no intelligence)
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Fidoric

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2008, 03:32:53 PM »
I follow you on the elemental animals as familiar, but what can you possibly expect from an non-intelligent familiar. Or do you give it a minimal intelligence ?
Now there's a plan : we go there, we blast him, we come back...
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 03:48:51 PM »
 ;D The player really wanted a tiny air elemental as a familiar so I just said "yes, you can have this". He didn't care too much about its intelligence...
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Fidoric

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 03:09:11 PM »
BTW, one of the adantages granted by a familiar is the ability to use its senses... Considering how alien a elemental's perception would be, how have you handled that ? I did not think about it a first, but it could be quite an inconvenience ?
Now there's a plan : we go there, we blast him, we come back...
Fighters forever !
Heart of steel.

Offline Schwarz

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 03:44:56 PM »
BTW, one of the adantages granted by a familiar is the ability to use its senses... Considering how alien a elemental's perception would be, how have you handled that ? I did not think about it a first, but it could be quite an inconvenience ?
This is the reason why i think it is intended to corrupt regular animals to be familiars. I hoped Robert J. Defendi could answer that. It would also make sense in a way of bringing elemental corruption to the world (convert animals and people to elementalism or the elemental god).

Offline Defendi

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2008, 04:08:57 PM »
I didn't write the spell.  I've been watching the discussion and working up my opinion of Lyn's intent.
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Offline zitos

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 03:41:09 PM »
Since I found my GM asking for my familair, i might also reply to it.
Even Zephyr Hounds are not intelligent, but living (and assuming hunting) in Packs like wolves do,
which are pretty intelligent hunters.

But finding no familiar is only one problem we are going to have i guess.

If i am allowed (or even forced) to create an familiar through infusing/corrupting it, that will give me a huge familiar even in low level.
Assuming a dog, beeing infused with 30 corruption points of earth, giving him 6 factor points in tough skin.
(and leaving 4fp?s open for con-bonus or crit reduction)
An AT 15 DB 40 Dog, beeing able to be set up with elemental enhancement list spells, e.g. hasted OB boosted etc.
Those "normal" creatures are just not balanced for the hybrid change and the sideeffects that come with that i guess. Fire&Ice low level creatures just don?t have that huge OB?s that you can find in C&M (or a 10th level +, or just way too heavy to act as familiar)

So, to come back to the "what familiar question" it is to say that
a)
infusing standard lifeforms to get an familiar will have some influence in play balance on the low level
b)
giving elementals from fire&ice some intelligence will give me some TEP dealing fully corrupted creatures to play with, which have (in lower levels) almost no OB/DB, but be quiet deadly if they hit something.

Hitting Level 4 soon i really would like to get an familiar soon, so any thoughts are welcome ;-)

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 05:46:51 AM »
If i am allowed (or even forced) to create an familiar through infusing/corrupting it, that will give me a huge familiar even in low level.
Assuming a dog, beeing infused with 30 corruption points of earth, giving him 6 factor points in tough skin.
(and leaving 4fp?s open for con-bonus or crit reduction)
An AT 15 DB 40 Dog, beeing able to be set up with elemental enhancement list spells, e.g. hasted OB boosted etc.
Those "normal" creatures are just not balanced for the hybrid change and the sideeffects that come with that i guess.

To giva 30CP to an animal without risking of killing it in the process you must use the Infuse Taint spell (possibly combined with Prepare Body).
At low levels you should be able to cast safely only Infuse Taint I (or maye II, if have some special Talent), which limits the CP gained by the animal to 10 (2 factor points). Also note that Infuse Taint modify by +/-20% your roll to determine which random traits the animal will recieve, but you still have to roll!
Your element infused animal will be slightly better than a common familiar (and it will become better in time, if you continue to cast higher level versions of Infuse Taint), but it will also be weaker against its scourge element... which can be dangerous!
And I've never seen a caster using his familiar as a bodyguard/fighter: the risk of losing it is too high and the penalties for the death of a familiar are not nice!  ;)
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline zitos

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 06:55:14 AM »
ehem,
at level 3 i would cast an level 12 with -18.
For level 4 and spell level 15(infuse 3) will be at -30 maybe.
So if i put in all my PowerPoints, which shouldn?t be such a risk since i won?t do it in combat, i might get an bonus on Spellcasting from around 30.
->no low open ended thrown = success.

If i need to "transform" my pet i will go for that.

My Priest is build to gate or infuse stuff, having the elemental crafter TP that only fits in style.

For the rolling trait stuff. Yep, it might take a week or so to till all traits are in tough skin. But removing is on the same list, so if i don?t like the trait, just go for another shot. If i kill a dog in the process, just get another dog. Since i need to transform before making it a familiar theres no risk except for the dog.

And with the healing/enhancement list i don?t see why i should not have a protecting familiar, if it?s our best fighter why not. i rather loose a familiar, then a comrad.

But that does not help with finding a familiar or gate one. Both have up&down sides. I?d be fine with both, since both would leave me something to experiment with.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:11:55 AM by zitos »

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2008, 09:05:59 AM »
ehem,
at level 3 i would cast an level 12 with -18.
For level 4 and spell level 15(infuse 3) will be at -30 maybe.
So if i put in all my PowerPoints, which shouldn?t be such a risk since i won?t do it in combat, i might get an bonus on Spellcasting from around 30.
->no low open ended thrown = success.

 ??? How??
Even if you prepare the spell for 9 rounds if you're level 4th you'll have a -100 penalty to cast a 15th level spell! :o
This without counting penalties for spent PPs...
And if you fail you'll have to add that to the fumble roll => :micro:
AFAIK there's no way to have a bonus to SCSM by using more PPs, is it a House Rule?

Quote
And with the healing/enhancement list i don?t see why i should not have a protecting familiar, if it?s our best fighter why not. i rather loose a familiar, then a comrad.

Probably.. this really depends on the PC's moral/view of the world. The familiar is basically a part of yourself once you attune to it.
Besides that, having your PPs cut to half (with all casting penalties for it) or a -25 penalty to all actions beacuse a kobold got a lucky shot and killed your familiar really sucks IMHO...
I would rather use my healing/enhacing lists on a random summoned cannon fodder, which gives me no drawback if it gets hacked.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2008, 10:03:16 AM »
I assuming some talent law use for such spell casting abilities - not that difficult really with a lenient GM.

Other observations -

Priest version doesn't list hybrids so corrupting mundane creatures seems out. 

Where did you see the +50 CP's and you are treated as an elemental?  Control/master spells aren't listed until 75 CP's.  This would still take a 30th level spell to infuse 50 CP's.

It is odd that a first level spell essentially binds elementals to the caster but summon, control and master spells are much higher level which would most likely be needed to keep the potential familiar around for the week's casting time let alone stationary for two hours.

Range of touch?  Ouch!

It would seem that corrupting mundane creatures is implied but what exactly is the mass of a fire or air elemental? 
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2008, 03:06:07 PM »
Priest version doesn't list hybrids so corrupting mundane creatures seems out. 

Unfortunately Fire and Ice isn't really clear on whats meant by the word elemental, as hybrids, constructs, and entities are all listed under the section entitled "Elementals".  In my game (and the rest of this post) an Elemental with capital E is a traditional elemental (floating ball of fire) and lowercase e means any type of elemental (hybrid, Elemental, construct).
We ran into this problem as well for gating... Gating states you summon an elemental by type, but gives no further info.  Since you are in fact gating an elemental from the elemental planes we decided that you could gate hybrids that live on the plane as well as Elementals.  Elementalists are able to summon specific types of elementals (Type I, Type II) and which elemental is summoned is determined by a roll (found in the Elementalists spell list).. we used those numbers to decide which specific elemental is gated.  (after using the Priests roll to determine what type)

ehem,
And with the healing/enhancement list i don?t see why i should not have a protecting familiar, if it?s our best fighter why not. i rather loose a familiar, then a comrad.

The mass restriction alone makes a combat familiar a tough proposition, not to mention the icky ramifications if the familiar dies.  About the only 'combat' familiar I'd consider creating with the priest is a flying creature with a (infused) breath weapon.  And for that to be at all effective the GM would have to be talked into allowing the familiar to gain skill (OB) with the breath weapon.  But it's pretty obvious (especially if you read the Essence Comp.) that familiars were never meant to be fighters.

If your looking for a fighter...
I'm playing a level 6 Elemental Light Priest in my game and I have a mastered Light Elemental Servant.  Its quite useful in combat.  Especially if I cast a few buffing spells on it.  It dosen't have a high OB but its difficult to hit, and one of it's attack options is 4 attacks a round giving it a 20% chance, each round, of rolling open ended, and any crit causes an additional elemental crit of the same type.  Use it's high speed to get in behind an enemy while PC's are in front and it's actually quite effective.
Further depending on how deep the GM wants to go, Elementals gated in by priests can be scary mean because they corrupt whatever they touch (or touches them).. so hitting someone cases poisoning.  An unfortunate weapon that hits a gated elemental has a chance of being corrupted (which could cause it to explode)  In my game we kinda streamlined the whole thing, because rolling resistance rolls for every successful attack done by a hireling would take too long.

At Level 4 you won't be able to master a normal level 5 Elemental Servant, however there are rules in creature companion for randomly varying the level of creatures.  So perhaps you can convince the GM to roll it and keep trying to gate in elementals until you get a lower level Elemental Servant.  Or just gate before a combat and keep it 'controlled'.


Lastly for familiars we kinda glazed over the whole intelligence issue.  There are many contradictions in rolemaster.  The Farie Dragon, for example can bond and become someone's familiar all on it's own (the PC need not even be a spellcaster) however the Farie dragon is above animal intelligence.  We felt that the intention was that a Priest could have an elemental as a familiar.  Obviously the relationship would be different then a traditional familiar.  A gated familiar is a spirit pulled from its own plane into our own, so it's knowledge would be nearly useless here, but it could potentially be a great source of help should the PC ever visit the plane of it's origin.  Also, it's perceptions would be dramatically different then a familiar with 2 eyes, thats already dealt with, if you wanted to see through it, get a few ranks in the 'familar senses' skill, the same thing you'd have to do to see through the compound eye of a insect familiar or the 8 eyes of a spider familiar.


Zitos, if you really want a good familiar, I'd consider looking into getting 3 ranks in the "Animal Summons" list from the Summoner's Base Lists (Channeling Comp).  Costing a total of 24 DP's this would give you access to the True Familiar spell.  Again not too useful as a combat creature, this spell does create a much more generally useful familiar.
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Offline zitos

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 08:55:31 PM »
Quote
Huh How??
Even if you prepare the spell for 9 rounds if you're level 4th you'll have a -100 penalty to cast a 15th level spell! Shocked
This without counting penalties for spent PPs...

Power option and +10 for scsm. (Talents)
At Level 3 i got an 42 bonus on that list.
100-42-10(delib)-5(hands)-10(shout)=-23
+ one level of DP

Quote
Probably.. this really depends on the PC's moral/view of the world. The familiar is basically a part of yourself once you attune to it.
No chance to make that dog a familier before it is transformed. So if it dies in process it might have just been too weak.

Quote
Where did you see the +50 CP's and you are treated as an elemental?  Control/master spells aren't listed until 75 CP's.  This would still take a 30th level spell to infuse 50 CP's.

It is odd that a first level spell essentially binds elementals to the caster but summon, control and master spells are much higher level which would most likely be needed to keep the potential familiar around for the week's casting time let alone stationary for two hours.
So here?s the problem. what does that familiar spell grant me, if everything you could bind needs 9level+ spells to even exist near you? That defenitly needs some clarification i guess.

Quote
Range of touch?  Ouch!
prepare body should work either way. Cast in on my body should protect me from that ouch...

Quote
It would seem that corrupting mundane creatures is implied but what exactly is the mass of a fire or air elemental?
well, mundane would be fine with me. But that should not restrict it to mundane elementals, which sure could kill our whole party, since there is noone to control/master it ;-)

Quote
The mass restriction alone makes a combat familiar a tough proposition,
Yeah, i thought about that weight thing, guess i would rearange my fp to heavy, making me 660 pounds.
That would be enough for an european wolf. So a dog shouldn?t be that big of a problem.



Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2008, 05:04:59 AM »
You seem pretty set on having a combat oriented familiar.  Why not just master a gated in hybrid (or locally found)?
All the advantages of offensive power, none of the risks of a familiar being killed and you suffering minuses.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2008, 06:30:48 AM »
Quote
Huh How??
Even if you prepare the spell for 9 rounds if you're level 4th you'll have a -100 penalty to cast a 15th level spell! Shocked
This without counting penalties for spent PPs...

Power option and +10 for scsm. (Talents)
At Level 3 i got an 42 bonus on that list.
100-42-10(delib)-5(hands)-10(shout)=-23
+ one level of DP

Ok, so the failure chances are not so high (around 45%).

Still I'm not sure that a combat familiar will be a good idea: penalities coming from familiar's death are just too high. Why don't you just corrupt a random dog and then control it using your Control/Master elemental spells?
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline zitos

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2008, 07:42:17 AM »
I will later.
changing fp in lategame to something more usefull, or even changing familiar is defenetly planned.
But with our Party setup we need one more to bind a foe at the moment. And that seems to be the quickest way.
I?m not planning in putting that dog/thing/whatever comes out of this to an risk i cannot calculate.
But at the moment there is noone who?s watching my back while casting infight.
We cycle our GM among players from adventure to adventure, with GM?s PC doing some stuff somewhere (not adventuring with the rest of the party). So on the next change we just have one Fighter with us.

This will only be a 2level workaround, if you?d like to call it that way. At the time our 2nd fighter is GM, a combat familiar won?t be needed that much anymore. (due to mastered elementals etc.)

But you might want to see it the other way round then:
A combat Familiar won?t die by accident (or well placed fireball) that fast.
As said, i?m not planning on attacking everyfoe i see with it, just covering my back till i get my spells out.

But that hasn?t been the point here in first place.
Question is what kind of familiar the priest might be intended to have.

"mundane elementals" (w or w/o corruption?, deadly in level for most elemental priests)
every elemental corrupted beeing (with animal int, "selfmade" or hybrid, needing midlevel spells to create)
elementals from elemental plane (missing intelligence[stat], might gate something deadly[which could be caster level +1])

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2008, 12:50:53 PM »
As said, i?m not planning on attacking everyfoe i see with it, just covering my back till i get my spells out.

This makes things a lot different...  ;)

But that hasn?t been the point here in first place.
Question is what kind of familiar the priest might be intended to have.

"mundane elementals" (w or w/o corruption?, deadly in level for most elemental priests)
every elemental corrupted beeing (with animal int, "selfmade" or hybrid, needing midlevel spells to create)
elementals from elemental plane (missing intelligence[stat], might gate something deadly[which could be caster level +1])

I've always ruled "every elemental corrupted being" (with animal intelligence and appropiate dimensions).
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Temujin

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Re: Fire and Ice - The Elemental Companion
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2008, 02:38:46 PM »
I would consider all elemental creatures of size S and animal intelligence or less, which includes: Arctic Fox, Burrowing Beetle, Elemental Whisplings, Giant Lightning Bug, Zephyr Falcons and any creature of size S that has 50+ corruption points of a particular elemental.  Reasoning for the later is that those creatures can be controlled (albeit difficultly) with Elemental Control/Master spells, and so can be treated as elemental creatures.