Topic: Poll: Which versions of Rolemaster do you play?

[Setorn]

Well, “why not RMFRP?”

Well, on the light side RMFRP looks silly. 
1)   Honestly, nostalgia – It was the third RPG that I played and I was published in it.
2)   RMFRP – I do not like the ways that Chanelling was developed and really did not like Channelling Companion (I know RMSS).
3)   RMFRP is harder to teach to new players than RMX or RM2/C.
4)   Each of my worlds is very custom and using a spreadsheet would take major modifications each time that I ran a game in a new world.   

Ok, just a few. I don’t want to start a which is better thread, because I don’t really think either is.  It is a matter of taste. 

[Grafton]

Started with RM2, now using hybrid RM2/RMC using house modifications over the last 20 years. Just made a major change to combat though, actually following the rules more that I did previously

[danbuter]

I prefer RM2, though I also have a ton of stuff for RMFRP. I just picked up the Express rules last week, and they are pretty cool.

[Cernid Win]

We play RMFRP with MERP modules
also with a mix of english/german books (whatever is availiable)
we started with rm2 (the old MERS/MERP rules) but ported over to RMFRP 1 1/2 years ago (a sh..load of work also because IIRC we got from english charakter sheets to german ones so the alphabetical order changed)
yep its the frankenstein of rolemaster 

[Mr. Fixit]

RMFRP for us.  Because, as I've said on other threads and others have said on this one, it was available and supported at the time of purchase.
Related side-note: Being a computer idiot myself, I have never used a spreadsheet to create a character and hands on practice has shaved my creation time down to 45 minutes for non-spell users and @1 hour for spell users, which may still seem long to some gamers, but I think it's the price you pay to get a character that completely reflects your concept/ideas about said character.
I just bring this up to say that one of the "drawbacks" of RMFRP ie long character creation is shortened by practice.

[Harry1974]

I have many of the books for RMSS/RMFRP and for RM2.  I use them with my game run using a fusion of RMX/RMC to provide details.  For example Pirates, Weapons Law: Firearms and At Rapiers Point provided valuable information on blackpowder weapons for my game set in a Warhammer type setting.

[GoblynByte]

RMFRP for us.  Because, as I've said on other threads and others have said on this one, it was available and supported at the time of purchase.
Related side-note: Being a computer idiot myself, I have never used a spreadsheet to create a character and hands on practice has shaved my creation time down to 45 minutes for non-spell users and @1 hour for spell users, which may still seem long to some gamers, but I think it's the price you pay to get a character that completely reflects your concept/ideas about said character.
I just bring this up to say that one of the "drawbacks" of RMFRP ie long character creation is shortened by practice.

My objection to the long character creation isn't so much from the perspective of a player but as a GM.  As a player I don't mind devoting the time and energy to really hand crafting the perfect PC (perfect not in numbers but in concept).  I'd be happy spreading that process over days of fiddling and conception.

As a GM, however, the lengthy process is much more daunting.  Of course, as a GM you don't need to go through the chargen process.  I mean, you can just slap down a few reasonable numbers for "lesser" NPCs and move on.  But I enjoy creating major NPCs with the same chargen process as PCs and, once you get beyond 10 major NPCs (I like adventures with a lot of major NPCs) it becomes a difficult process.  The spreadsheet actually makes this tolerable.

[Mr. Fixit]

 
[/quote]

As a GM, however, the lengthy process is much more daunting.  Of course, as a GM you don't need to go through the chargen process.  I mean, you can just slap down a few reasonable numbers for "lesser" NPCs and move on.  But I enjoy creating major NPCs with the same chargen process as PCs and, once you get beyond 10 major NPCs (I like adventures with a lot of major NPCs) it becomes a difficult process. 
[/quote]

I feel you on this.  But I should have mentioned, I am the GM.  I "slap down numbers" sometimes, but often do a full work up as well and you're right, it can be daunting at times.  I'm sure if I was more comfortable with the char gen programs I would use them, but just never got into the habit.  I will say that crafting all the NPCs by hand makes me treasure them more, so they act more like real people- they don't want to die cause I don't want to have to throw the sheet away along with all the effort  !
It was a definitive learning curve and I did have to start planning my sessions a little longer in advance.

Notice: My computer skills are so poor, I can't even get quotes into that nifty little box!  

[Vince]

Rm2/RmC

with a few modifications and house rules about combat, fly, and most used skills.

[IronCrownFanboy]

Rolemaster FRPG.

I want all the crunch and options!



James

[Ramoran]

I've got some experience with DnD spreadsheets, and I've found that it's just not organic enough for me, even if the by-hand character generation process takes longer.  As a GM, I'll definitely use a spreadsheet to hash out NPCs due to the fact that it does indeed save time, but no spreadsheet allows the true freedom of generating a character by hand because no computer program I've found has encompassed everything I might want to do with a character.  Also, trying to get a spreadsheet to do certain things with weapons, spells, etc. can actually be more time consuming than just jotting those numbers down by hand.  Even if I do go the spreadsheet route, I always copy the numbers down onto an actual character sheet in pencil.

I also insist that my players hash out characters by hand, and they do it when I'm present so I can make sure everything is done correctly and rules/campaign guidelines are followed to a T.  It means the players must share the process of character creation with me to a degree, but it also means a more cohesive campaign.

[GoblynByte]

I've got some experience with DnD spreadsheets, and I've found that it's just not organic enough for me, even if the by-hand character generation process takes longer.  As a GM, I'll definitely use a spreadsheet to hash out NPCs due to the fact that it does indeed save time, but no spreadsheet allows the true freedom of generating a character by hand because no computer program I've found has encompassed everything I might want to do with a character.  Also, trying to get a spreadsheet to do certain things with weapons, spells, etc. can actually be more time consuming than just jotting those numbers down by hand.  Even if I do go the spreadsheet route, I always copy the numbers down onto an actual character sheet in pencil.

I also insist that my players hash out characters by hand, and they do it when I'm present so I can make sure everything is done correctly and rules/campaign guidelines are followed to a T.  It means the players must share the process of character creation with me to a degree, but it also means a more cohesive campaign.

One thing I appreciate about the RM spreadsheets (or at least the ones I've encountere) is that they really just tabulate the numbers and make sure you don't miss any of the tiny fiddly bits (random bonuses that you might have missed).  As long as you're following the Rules As Written, without any significant alterations, it's a prime situation that still leaves you the ability to fill in the more "freeform" details.  Since there would be no variation to the numerical data anyway you're not really sacrificing anything.

Now, if you tweak the system even a little bit than spreadsheets aren't all that helpful (unless you know how to get into the guts of it and shift things around...which I don't).

In a perfect situation, though, I would prefer not to use a spreadsheet.  I enjoy the hands on experience of knowing where everything is coming from and where everything is going.  If a spreadsheet is working behind the scenes I miss out on a lot of the intimate knowledge about my character.  But I just find that it isn't as practical to make characters by hand using RMSS because, as I said before, all the spreadsheet is really doing is tabulating the numbers and managing the skill/skill catagory system for me which I find to be tedious "busy work."  By the time the spreadsheet is doing this function I've already made all the important decisions about the character.  On the other hand, for the time invested in writing out a RMSS character by hand I could have made several characters in GURPS and, in the same amount of time, spent quite a bit of time thinking over their backgrounds, personalities, motivations, and so on...the things that are REALLY important to a character.

Now, for me this "problem" really only stands in RMSS.  I LOVE the details of RMSS (ii.e. the end result of the characters if not the process or making them) but often I just don't want to take the time to work the numbers for a character that is, truthfully, no more fleshed out, detailed, or "realistic" than a character I could make in a quarter of the time in GURPS (though I have other issues with GURPS that aren't really the subject of this thread).  But with RMC or, especially, HARP I find there to be a happy medium in the efficiency of character creation and the detail provided by the process.

[markc]

 The best woudl be an easy to adjust spread sheet where you could play with the numbers all you want.

MDC

I am suprised that this is in the What version do you play section.

[Griffonbait]

Some of you guys probably already know what I am about to say, but I will say it anyway .

I started RM in 1984 and after getting RM2, I used it right up until the start of 2006, mainly because I have every RM2 book every published and was not willing to fork out another AU$1000 for a revised edition. I loved the game and its mechanics and was hostile to the idea of change after putting so much effort into RM2.

After changing to RMFRP (I suppose I succumbed ICEs advertising) I, and my players, have never looked back except to reminisce or discuss the differences between the two systems. We love the way the skills are split up, albeit I don't always remember what skill goes with what category, but this is due to inexperience. The change was a good one and I am glad to have waited until RMFRP was produced. Essentially my gaming experience between RM2 and RMFRP did not differ greatly. Yes, combat phases are different but are way better in RMFRP (IMO) and skill listings are different (again better) but the rest - looking up attack tables, checking the SM tables or the MM table, assigning difficulties or describing the storyline have changed little and these are the bread and butter of playing a game.

My players enjoy the RMFRP version much more than RM2 even though they have only ever played the RM2 version (or D&D, etc. in their other friends' games) and as for character generation, there is no difference in timing. My players scour the books and discuss with me what they want to do. We usually spend 4 to 6 hours doing character creation (1 to 2 gaming sessions) and the players really do own their characters - something that I help reinforce. Since they own the game they don't treat it like a board game where you get a new start every time you play so who cares if my character dies ? my friends really hate nasty things happening to their characters. For them (and me) RPGing is a serious escape-from-reality business.

Lastly, and I haven't said this before, I am very surprised about the amount of reliance on computers/spreadsheets to play RM as presented here. There is nothing hard about running an RM game if you are organised (and in my case, having lots of experience), but saying this I do acknowledge that I use a random treasure generation program that I wrote for Windows (and no, it is not a spreadsheet but a true Windows program written in C#2005 - a masterpiece even if I do say so myself  ). I do sometimes look up my PDFs using Acrobat when I can't find what I want in my printed copies, but I have never used a spreadsheet to say, run combat or deal with skill checks, etc - hmm I think another programming idea is coming to mind.

I would be interested to know what people are using the computer for when playing RM - see the thread: 

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=5522.0

Cheers,
Griffonbait

[markc]

 Griffonbait,
 I am supprised it took you so long to switch and at the same time not supprised. I myself started in a RM2 game in 1998 with a few changes the GM had chosen for his world. I had trouble picking up the RM2 books as was expected since they had been out of print for a long time. But I found RMSS a great fit for my RPing needs and did fix some of the problems my old GM was trying to in his game. He said he might switch if he did not have 20 years of notes to redo.

MDC 

[Griffonbait]

I have plenty of notes too Markc, but I tend to work on the fly with monster stats, etc. and so going back to old games is a simple matter of looking up the current stats in the middle of play and using them.

Actually, I haven't noticed much difference between the RM2 C&T stats compared to RMFRP C&M. I have looked at a number of summary tables for comparison and have noticed that there are no changes whatsoever. (I hope I am not going blind ) So there is very little to do regarding conversion anyway.


If I am wrong, please point out some of the differences (page no/s, etc.)

Cheers,
Griffonbait.

[Chaman]

I'm updating Norek and was going through the creature table, I think I went through ten or fifteen creatures before I found a change.

Obviously I play RMSS (when I can get a group together), I've got a quickie spread sheet that does a quick conversion for most of the material and I hacked that from two of the character creation sheets and I intend to convert it to VB or VC++, as there's a few things that Excel and VBA does poorly (Office2K at least). Even though I got it to implement training packages.

[Onirim]

I've played and mastered at RM2 in my early times,
I've mastered RMFRP, but it's just too slow and must be used with a computer i think. Many good ideas, but it's too heavy for me.
I've mastered HARP, and it's a great game.. but i don't find the ambiant i want with this rules.

Finally, i go back to RM2 ^^
(i haven't RMC nor RMX)

[markc]

 GB, the one I remember off the top of my head was Orcs, in an old product it had an OB or DB of around 80 and in a newer product it had an OB or DB of 40. I do not have the page #'s since it was back in 04 sometime and a lot has happened since then. But we did check 2 differnt books either a RM2 vs RMSS or a RMSS vs RMFRP and they were drasticly different. Since I was Co-GMing we setteled on a standard book to use and standard stats from RMSS instead of mixing them.

MDC

[rafmeister]

     I prefer RMFRP for most aspects. I do use ONE aspect of RM2 in the game I run; the turn sequence. I go spells to be cast, missile phase, movement, etc...

     I am running an RMFRP game online and play RM2 in a face-to-face every few weeks. Body development, spell list acquistion, and PP development is much better in RMFRP. The RMFRP similar skills system is much better than the one in RMCII; also, the spell lists are "fuller" than in RM2. With that said, the core system of RM2 was much simpler in the treatment of skills.