Topic: Help with building the best monk char I can with the tools at my disposal

[JUNKdeLUXE]

Hey all,

I'm in the process of building my first Martial Arts character and I'm a bit lost as to what to focus on to make a decently well-rounded character.

We've been playing since the mid 90ies and during the time we've added lots of house-rules etc. We're trying to scale them back though, and play with as RAW as possible and with as few optional rules as possible.


So far we've limited ourselves to these books:

Character Law & Campaign Law
Arms Law & Claw Law
Spell Law
Companion I to III

I managed to roll some decent temps (raised a few with background points):

CO   92
AG   100
SD   90
ME   76
RE   93
ST   100
QU   101
PR   45
EM   42
IN   54

(That gives me around 40 development points per level, I will be starting at lvl 3)


First of all I'd like to be more than just one that does combat well, but to survive, I have to establish a certain level of comfortability in combat situations, before focusing my character development into the areas that makes him flavorful.

Q1: Monk vs Warrior Monk vs High Warrior Monk? Pro/Cons?
Q2: Would you use more background points on raising stats or rather roll for gifts and/or gear?
Q3: Would you go all out on strikes AND sweeps? so 2 ranks each level in Strikes I to IV and Sweeps I to IV?
Q4: I expect next in line would be to max Adrenal Defense until diminishing returns?
Q5: Which non-combat skills do you feel would lend itself well to the class and my stats and remaining dev.pts (if any).

Any other ideas you can give that would help me flesh out the character better is appreciated.

[Hurin]

Use High Warrior Monk. It is in almost all respects superior to Warrior Monk -- especially in the all-important cost of your main combat skill (martial arts).

I always used most if not all of my background points to raise stats. The difference between a 100 and a 102 (if your GM allows stats to go that high) is +10, which is big.

I would choose to specialize in either strikes or sweeps. You can't really afford to do both to rank 4 (just too expensive, even for HWM), so I would do two skill ranks per level in all four MA ranks in either striking or sweeps (i.e. spend 12 points per level in either strikes or sweeps).

Max adrenal defense. It is what is going to keep you alive.

Useful non-combat skills include Perception, Stalking and Hiding (if you don't consider those combat skills), Climbing, and Contortions (to get out of bonds and tight places). One of the keys to your survival and group utility is your mobility and stealthiness, so invest in them and you should be good.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

would it be a terrible idea to focus on ranks I and II only for strikes and sweeps (until diminishing returns) so I could pick and choose depending upon what AT I'm up against?


also... we've been playing with a rule the last decade or so, that we're not allowed to use sweeps/throws against a large or super large creature.. I've been trying to figure out if it's a houserule, optional or RAW.. but in all fairness I can see why we play with it, as it would look odd if I managed to pick up a dragon and slam it to the ground...

[jdale]

would it be a terrible idea to focus on ranks I and II only for strikes and sweeps (until diminishing returns) so I could pick and choose depending upon what AT I'm up against?

You end up making the choice "do I use the attack that is effectively +50 but only a max of B criticals, or the attack that is not as potent but could score an E critical?" Is that worth the DP expenditure? Might be if you don't care about any other skills, but it doesn't make for a very well rounded character.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

You end up making the choice "do I use the attack that is effectively +50 but only a max of B criticals, or the attack that is not as potent but could score an E critical?" Is that worth the DP expenditure? Might be if you don't care about any other skills, but it doesn't make for a very well rounded character.

I think I failed to describe my idea properly

What i meant was...

Would it be terrible to do as follows:

lvl 1-10:
2 ranks in Sweeps and Throws, rank I and II
2 ranks in Strikes, rank I and II

level 11-20:
2 ranks in Sweeps and Throws, rank III and IV
2 ranks in Strikes, rank III and IV

(my skillbonus for all 4 MA attacks would be the same)

Doing it like this would cost the same as only Strikes, rank I, II, III and IV. I will get weaker crits, but I will get more of them (as I can pick and choose), and I will get the better crits later when diminishing returns hit my lvl 1-10 ranks.

[intothatdarkness]

would it be a terrible idea to focus on ranks I and II only for strikes and sweeps (until diminishing returns) so I could pick and choose depending upon what AT I'm up against?


also... we've been playing with a rule the last decade or so, that we're not allowed to use sweeps/throws against a large or super large creature.. I've been trying to figure out if it's a houserule, optional or RAW.. but in all fairness I can see why we play with it, as it would look odd if I managed to pick up a dragon and slam it to the ground...

My RM2 Arms Law is packed away somewhere, but I did look at RMC's Arms Law (which is more or less identical) and it doesn't say one way or the other. My group had the same rule/convention, although I think we applied it to martial arts in general, not just sweeps & throws. Of course, we never really had monks or high warrior monks in the party so it was kind of a non-issue.

The ruling was based on the Large and Super Large crit tables containing no reference to anything other than weapons if I remember correctly.

[Hurin]

If your GM has this rule about not using sweeps against large and super large creatures, then that is another reason to focus just on strikes. (I can't remember if this is a houserule or not; we didn't use it. But it makes sense).

The problem of going 2 ranks/level into strikes I and II, and 2 into sweeps I and II, is that, as JDale noted, you're going to max out at B and C criticals. There are a fair number of creatures that get 1 or 2 critical severity reductions too, meaning there will be some creatures you literally cannot get criticals on. Personally, I feel that RM is all about the criticals.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

also... we've been playing with a rule the last decade or so, that we're not allowed to use sweeps/throws against a large or super large creature.. I've been trying to figure out if it's a houserule, optional or RAW.. but in all fairness I can see why we play with it, as it would look odd if I managed to pick up a dragon and slam it to the ground...

That would make a great scenario! Questing for the legendary book, "How To Wrestle With Dragons", by Billbins the Halfling. 

[rdanhenry]

Arms Companion included Large and Super-Large critical tables for both martial arts sweeps and strikes.

[flumin]

also... we've been playing with a rule the last decade or so, that we're not allowed to use sweeps/throws against a large or super large creature.. I've been trying to figure out if it's a houserule, optional or RAW.. but in all fairness I can see why we play with it, as it would look odd if I managed to pick up a dragon and slam it to the ground...

That would make a great scenario! Questing for the legendary book, "How To Wrestle With Dragons", by Billbins the Halfling. 

    

That said, it's not *that* easier to imagine a halfling kicking a dragon to death!

[Malim]

focus in strikes rank 1-4 2 ranks pr. lvl (12 dev pt. pr lvl)
Adr. DB  2 ranks. (9 dev pt. lvl)
Adr. move speed
SLA
maybe 1 rank in sweeps ranks 1-4 (4 dev pr lvl)
1 body dev and some random skills.. after lvl 10 you can focus on more random stuff since you should go 1 rank in DB and strikes from there!

[Spectre771]

TLDR - Read the yellow highlight section. 


Good points made by all.  Having Arms Companion would be great as it includes Wrestling (Grappling crits) and Tackling (Ram/Butt/Bash attack table) as two more optional "Martial Arts" styles at same cost of MA.  One common theme is that people hear "Martial Arts" and immediately think "Little man in robes, jumping and kicking all over the place."   Any fighting style (martial) that is studied and improved upon(art) is a Martial Art.  This includes boxing, wrestling, aikido, fencing, kicking styles, throwing styles, grappling styles, etc. 

There are Large and Super Large crit table for Martial Arts.  That doesn't necessarily mean the halfling threw the dragon over his shoulder, but perhaps he was able to target pressure points, nerve clusters, or wiggled his own body in such a manner that his opponent fell from his own momentum (Aikido).

Background Options:  I always try Skill at Magic just once.  There are some nice stat bonuses there and some cool things even for non-spell users.  I believe Skill at Arms table has +25 to Adrenals.  Always a great bonus to have as it saves you a ton of DP in Adrenal ranks across the board.

Sweeps/Throws vs. Strikes: This is going to be personal preference.  Personally, I like sweeps and throws as they produce Unbalancing crits which do nasty things like extra broken bones and "wind knocked out of target" extra stuns.  And a prone foe is a good foe.  The heavier armour types are especially vulnerable to the Sweeps and, as they are harder to damage with weapons, using that heavy armour against them is a great advantage/equalizer.  Where weapons can't penetrate the heavy armour, you can do a lot more damage.  I think there are simply more advantages with Sweeps than with Strikes.  The results of the unbalancing crits put a lot in your favor - prone, stun, skeletal damage.

Adrenals: I'm a fan of Adrenal Speed with Sweeps/Throws.  If I can get two sets of Unbalancing crits on my target it's fantastic.  I'll take Adrenal Strength if I'm going to focus on the Strikes instead.  A token 1-rank in Adrenal Landing at the very least.  It's saved my hide a few times and made me wish I had it plenty of other times. 

(Note - If you take Adrenal Balance, take Tightrope Walking too.  Why not?    And depending on your GM, Grappling Hook and Rope Mastery.  Some GM's are strict.)

Meditations:  Ki, Healing, and Sleep are nice ones to have.

Ranks of Sweeps or Strikes:  Whichever is your primary means, 2-ranks per level, every level until you hit 10 ranks.  The "other" style, 1- per level if I have a stray 1 or 2 DP leftover and I don't know where to put them.  I usually focus up to rank 2, but I'll throw some into rank 3 and 4.  I wouldn't buy my "back-up" style all ranks, every level.  Just throw 1 or 2 DP at it.  It's also good to have as a back up if you break your arm, you can use strikes to kick and maybe not have a penalty.

After 3 levels  (I've assumed you use Adolescent Level-0)
Sweeps
R1: ********  (8 )
R2: ********  (8 )
R3: ****         (4)  Once you've reached 10 ranks in R1 and R2, dump the points into
R4: ****         (4)   R3 and R4 as you'll need more hitting power as your foes are
                              stronger now.  Lower level NPCs, R1 and R2 is good.

Strikes
R1: **    OR *         At lower levels, you'll be using your primary attack.  Once you've
R2: **    OR *         mastered (maxed out Sweeps) you can focus those DP in Strikes.
R3: *                      Should be by level 9 at this point.
R4: *

I would take 1 rank per level in a ranged weapon too.  Nothing wrong with a bow or crossbow to soften up the enemy.  With the stats you have, you won't need a lot of ranks to be decent at it.  Just don't waste DP on buying 2 ranks per level.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

Thanks for all your input guys, I really appreciate it

[JUNKdeLUXE]

TLDR - Read the yellow highlight section. 

Background Options:  I always try Skill at Magic just once.  There are some nice stat bonuses there and some cool things even for non-spell users.  I believe Skill at Arms table has +25 to Adrenals.  Always a great bonus to have as it saves you a ton of DP in Adrenal ranks across the board.

I was under the impression that most (all?) adrenal moves/abilities used skill rank bonus and not skill totals? so what good does a +25 to adrenals do if I have 100+ with just my stats, level bonus and the ranks necessary to get some decent leverage out of the skill?

[intothatdarkness]

TLDR - Read the yellow highlight section. 

Background Options:  I always try Skill at Magic just once.  There are some nice stat bonuses there and some cool things even for non-spell users.  I believe Skill at Arms table has +25 to Adrenals.  Always a great bonus to have as it saves you a ton of DP in Adrenal ranks across the board.

I was under the impression that most (all?) adrenal moves/abilities used skill rank bonus and not skill totals? so what good does a +25 to adrenals do if I have 100+ with just my stats, level bonus and the ranks necessary to get some decent leverage out of the skill?

A +25 is pretty much the same as developing the skill to rank 5, meaning you could ignore it for a couple of development cycles if you wanted to. Things like that matter more, in my opinion anyhow, at lower levels. Plus if I remember the bonus correctly it applies to ALL adrenal skills (I could be wrong here...we didn't use Adrenal Moves that much), so you're really saving a ton of DPs at those early levels when you might well need them for other things.

[Spectre771]

TLDR - Read the yellow highlight section. 

Background Options:  I always try Skill at Magic just once.  There are some nice stat bonuses there and some cool things even for non-spell users.  I believe Skill at Arms table has +25 to Adrenals.  Always a great bonus to have as it saves you a ton of DP in Adrenal ranks across the board.

I was under the impression that most (all?) adrenal moves/abilities used skill rank bonus and not skill totals? so what good does a +25 to adrenals do if I have 100+ with just my stats, level bonus and the ranks necessary to get some decent leverage out of the skill?

- A free +25 is the equivalent of 5 free ranks in a skill.  If you get multiple adrenal skills you're looking at saving the equivalent of 25 or 30 free ranks  (Are there 5  or 6 Adrenal Skills?  Can't remember.)  That's a ton of savings in DP's that can be spent on other skills, such as all of the ranks you need to buy in your Strikes or Sweeps up to Rank 4.

- Sustaining adrenals if you want to maintain an adrenal skill for consecutive rounds.  Doing double attacks is great or double damage, or getting across a tightrope that takes more than 1 round.  Sustaining Adrenal Balance for more than one round may help save your life.

- Having a total skill bonus of 100+ nearly guarantees success, just don't fumble.

Simply put, the +25 to Adrenals is that it applies to all of your adrenal skills, not just a single skill.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

What I mean is.. it doesn't matter if I have 5 or 500 skill total in Adrenal Landing.. it's still the Skill Rank Bonus that determines how far I can fall without taking damage.

To extrapolate from this.. if I like a particular Adrenal move, I need to invest DPs in it for it to be effective.. and thus my total bonus to said skill will already be fairly high if not above 100.

On the other hand.. if the gift actually gave 5 skill ranks (or +25 to skill rank bonus and not the skill total), then yes, that would be an AMAZING gift.. but having 500 skill total in an adrenal move is still worthless if I have no skill ranks in it.

[Spectre771]

You're overlooking the fundamental basic of Adrenal moves.  You need to roll and to break 100 to have the adrenal move actually 'activate.'

ChL&CaL  pg 53:
Strength - A roll of 101+ Indicates success and the above bonuses apply for the next round.  Failure means no bonuses are obtained the next round

Speed - Speed is prepared just as the Strength Adrenal Move; success is determined the same way.

Note: Use Presence stat bonus for all adrenal moves

  * Further note: RMC2 uses Presence/SD as the stat bonus.




RMC-IV  pg 29:
Maintaining Adrenals - This requires a new roll each subsequent round to see if the Adrenal move continues; this roll is 1D100 plus the Adrenal Skill bonus.  The modified roll must be more than (90 + 10 * # rnds), see chart below

Round     Success      Penalty
    #            on          Rnd After

   1             100+       -20
   2             111+       -30
   3             121+       -40
   4             131+       -50


--------------


You can see where the +25 to all Adrenals is an awesome background option.

20% to actions during the preparation round.
Roll d100 and add the total bonuses (Skill ranks, Level, Stat, Misc).
A total of 101 or greater means the Adrenal move is triggered.

For Adrenal Landing, the 20% penalty occurs after the action.  The 'preparation round' happens after the fall.  The PC wouldn't have time to spend a round prepping while in free fall and the distance reduction for a fall can never be less than 10' and the PC still needs a total roll of 101+ to see if Adrenal Landing actually triggers.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

As mentioned in the first post, we only use Companions I to III.. so I don't think we have any rules that allow me to extend the effect of an adrenal move.

And I know that I need to break 100 to activate it.. which is why I said that any adrenal skill I would like to get some milage out of, would automatically have 100+ due to stats, skill ranks and level bonus.

The question by now is moot, as we're not allowed to choose/buy our Background options and I didn't get any of these Mind over Matter options, but I think the discussion is good (for me at least) as a purely academic one and it also helps me better understand the inner workings of a Martial Arts character - so I don't have to fiddle with it come game time