Topic: Are iron and steel scarce on Kulthea?

[metallion]

I see Lananok as closer to the Aztecs than the Mayans, and Aztec games were more like war than Aztec wars like games.

Rich merchants can be happy to live on their islands, but they cannot be happy to limit their markets to their islands simply because capitalism requires the fuel of new markets to keep it from collapsing on itself.  Rennaisance Venice was an empire.  They were a small player in the New World compared to Spain and Portugal not because they weren't interested in colonies, but because they backed the wrong horse against the Ottomans and that limited their resources -- which meant that Spain and Portugal were getting influxes of wealth from their immense colonial efforts.

I could see Sel-Kai not doing much colonization of Lankanok becuase their money's tied up in Stroani and Rhakhaani wars, but with Lankanok being this huge plum right in their back yard I'd think it more likely they were focussed there -- with the surge in Zanarian influence due largely to their being able to fill the Khatra's coffers with coin in the 6030s-40s TE.  Even then, there's no way that someone growing as rapidly as Relian is doesn't push through the Choak and take a big bite -- if only to ensure it's got the wealth to be able to avoid being colonized by Stroane.

Pre-WWII America was wildly colonial.  The Monroe Doctrine was pretty much the U.S. staking a claim on South America as it's colonial property.  They'd have certainly defended against the attack, but I think they'd have dropped moderately sized rocks instead of canister bombs.  Revealing the bombs can only result in everyone in the region looking at Namar Tol as an existential treat.  Rocks are far safer in the long run, and the tech difference would still result in the joke "Why does the New Lankan Navy have glass-bottomed boats?"

I see a continuity issue with explaining it away with essence flows -- those flows didn't stop Lankanok from sending a navy at Namar Tol.  If Lankanok's pre-iron then Sel-Kai, Preten, Danarchis, and pretty much everyone else on the Haestran and Silaari coast is going to have a better navy better able to handle them.  Certainly the flows are navigable enough for Sel-Kai to have a stable gold trade with Lankanok.

[egdcltd]

Venice may have been a small player in the New World, but they dominated the Mediterranean trade, with substantial overseas holdings at their height, vastly more than the limited population of Venice itself - especially after they helped conquer the Byzantine Empire. Which was their undoing, because the weakened empire fell to the Ottomans, who then took away Venice's colonial possessions. Sel-kai could always go on a conquering binge themselves.

[Faern Yatran]

We discuss about iron, but what about aluminium ?
In Emer Atlas II p.37, In Peligris "they are an abundant source of iron, coal, and bauxite (used in making aluminum)".
Aluminium metal is very difficult to produce and has been done only at the end of the XIX century. Furthermore, process claim electrolyse (so electricity).
Is there a nation able to do that ? It seems to me that even Namarian don't.

[Cormac Doyle]

Even a blast furnace would struggle to extract aluminum/aluminium from bauxite. I assume that in Shadow world, it would be down to Sel Kai or the Steampunkish Elves of Namar Tol would have some form of Electricity source to extract the aluminum/aluminium.

For example, they could create a lightning conductor that harvests electrical energy and conducts it to the smelt furnace, and put it in an area that has thousands of electrical strikes per day ... and you have a modern style electrical smelter without a standardized electricity supply.

For a real-life example of such an area, see the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning phenomenon.

In an area with Essaence Storms, having a harnessable Catatumbo-style phenomenon is hardly beyond the bounds of reason ... and would certainly only be harnessed.

Plus ... it would be incredibly atmospheric (in all senses of the word)

[VladD]

Bronze is not cheaper than iron: it is a semi precious metal since it is the basis of coinage. The reason iron phased out bronze was because it was cheaper. iron pieces are traditionally below tin pieces, so the conversion is 1000 ip = 100 tp = 10 cp = 1 bp. Bronze is about 50/50 tin and copper making a bronze piece .55 copper piece.

In reality, however, tin was a more scarce resource than copper and it had to come from far giving bronze a high value. Iron was available on many more spots making it a much cheaper resource but also it was a much more useful metal, being able to fill so many roles.

[brandivil]

Reading a history on earth's civilizations (Hope and Tragedy by Prof. Carroll Quigley, link: http://www.carrollquigley.net/pdf/Tragedy_and_Hope.pdf) - the British, Spanish, French were able to subjugate other larger nations by a common practice of creating a critical dependency through trade i.e. by selling advanced weaponry to these nations but not the manufacturing capability and know how.  It put those nations in a difficult position - don't accept the trade relationship at peril as their enemies will likely accept...trade relationship is dominated by those with the ability to manufacture advanced weaponry.   Point is the elves of Namor-Tol and Sel-Kai's trade barons are likely to be in a trade war for influence (even subjugation of lower tech nations) as both have the advantage being TL6 where Ardania and other realms are TL5 or less.

[yammahoper]

Reading a history on earth's civilizations (Hope and Tragedy by Prof. Carroll Quigley, link: http://www.carrollquigley.net/pdf/Tragedy_and_Hope.pdf) - the British, Spanish, French were able to subjugate other larger nations by a common practice of creating a critical dependency through trade i.e. by selling advanced weaponry to these nations but not the manufacturing capability and know how.  It put those nations in a difficult position - don't accept the trade relationship at peril as their enemies will likely accept...trade relationship is dominated by those with the ability to manufacture advanced weaponry.   Point is the elves of Namor-Tol and Sel-Kai's trade barons are likely to be in a trade war for influence (even subjugation of lower tech nations) as both have the advantage being TL6 where Ardania and other realms are TL5 or less.

+1

[Terry K. Amthor]

The manufacturing  technique is almost more important than the material. A weapon could be 'steel' but still crap. Better steel had less ore inclusions (vie higher smelting temps) and more carbon. And by using lamination of many layers, this produces a superior weapon. The Loari would guard these techniques jealously.