Topic: Multiple Instances of Pain spells stack?

[Peter R]

In answer to the original question I would say yes the pain spells do stack because as the original rules state spells with the same name do not stack. These spells have be intentionally named differently so not Pain I, Pain II etc but Pain, Ache, Magor Pain. So the stacking rule hold true unless a GM chooses that they do not. Personal decision.

As to whether Pain  = Hits. Pain spells reduce hits and the Unpain spells restore hits the same mechanism works both ways. I do not have a problem with this. It may or may not have been better if Unpain had restored a % of hits rather than a fixed number per round but I think that would have disadvantaged low level characters double, only having access to the weakest unpain spells AND only havig a small pool of hits to start with.

[jdale]

My personal feeling is that spell mastery should not be able to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell. E.g. Minor Pain is 25% and Major Pain is 50%, Minor Pain can never be enhanced to inflict 50%. Maybe 40% though.

If the lower level spell could effectively become the higher level spell, that's essentially the same as using spell mastery to reduce the casting cost and prep time to cast a higher level spell. And that seems like a very dangerous thing to permit.

[Warl]

My personal feeling is that spell mastery should not be able to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell. E.g. Minor Pain is 25% and Major Pain is 50%, Minor Pain can never be enhanced to inflict 50%. Maybe 40% though.

If the lower level spell could effectively become the higher level spell, that's essentially the same as using spell mastery to reduce the casting cost and prep time to cast a higher level spell. And that seems like a very dangerous thing to permit.

The draw back to doing that though is risking Extraordinary Spell failure.

[Peter R]

The skill description for Spell Mastery in roco2 says that Spell Mastery cannot be used to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell.

[Warl]

The skill description for Spell Mastery in roco2 says that Spell Mastery cannot be used to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell.

That is true in RM2, but perhaps not in RMSS or RMFRP as the current discussion lies not with in one of those specific forums (RM2 or RMSS) but within RM in general so applies to an of the sources.

[Peter R]

That is true, I just checked the RMC character law and spell law and that clarification is not there.

[yammahoper]

Chuckle...

I'm far more interested in what ya'all think, not what the rule books say.  I own the books.  Of course, if your opinion is that a specific rule in print is how it should be done, I would find that interesting to read also.

So, is the level of a spell equal to the total power points put into it?  If I required power points to fuel each Spell Mastery pick, say 2pp, and the level 9 spell will have +5% added times to increase the total hits lost to 40%, the spell would then cost 15pp.  Is this a 9yhlevel attack costing 15pp or a 15th level attack requiring appropriate prep/casting requirements for a 15th level spell?

[Peter R]

It seems to me that Yammahoper's game is customised to exactly fit his personal vision whereas mine is 99.9% exactly as written. So in a question of "does this rule work this way or that" there is very little chance of agreement doubly so when the discussion is in a generic rather that rule specific forum.

[yammahoper]

I'm not looking for agreement, rather opinions.

Should Spell Mastery be usable to increase the intensity of a spell, be that a multiple in hits with a bolt/ball spell, number of targets/radius, or increasing % of hits loss in a pain spell?  If the core rules state Spell Mastery cannot be used to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell, does that mean a fire bolt could add +1 target but not +2 because then the spell resembles triad of fire?

I'm a curious soul and wonder what 99.9% looks like 
From RMSS: SPELL MASTERY: This skill allows user to modify spells within or beyond basic parameters. Each individual spell list requires separate skill development (as with Riding or Weapon skills). This skill might be used to change the orientation upon arrival of the target of a Teleport spell, or it might be used to allow a spell user to attempt to alter a Bolt spell into a Ball spell. The character should roll for a successful Spell Mastery using the Power Manipulation Static Action Table. The result may indicate success or failure, as well as provide a modifier to the Spell Casting Static Maneuver Roll. {Pr}

?

[Cory Magel]

I'd tend rule a spell is cast at the casters level if being cast on the final target.  So a 9th level spell being cast by a 19th level caster would need to be resisted at a level of 19 rather than 9. There might be exceptions to that, but I don't think they'd be commonplace.

Items, in general, would be different more than likely.  I'd probably say that, in most cases, the spell is cast at the spells level.  Again, there may be exceptions (actually I know there would be with own little world setting in mind).

[yammahoper]

According to TC, spells from items are cast at a level equal to the highest level spell needed to make the item.

[jdale]

So, is the level of a spell equal to the total power points put into it?  If I required power points to fuel each Spell Mastery pick, say 2pp, and the level 9 spell will have +5% added times to increase the total hits lost to 40%, the spell would then cost 15pp.  Is this a 9yhlevel attack costing 15pp or a 15th level attack requiring appropriate prep/casting requirements for a 15th level spell?

Spell Mastery as written in RMSS doesn't take any additional PP, and when we have used it we have followed that precedent.

If I was to attach a PP cost... yeah, I can certainly imagine wanting to treat the spell as a higher level spell from the same list, simply one that does not presently exist. Your 15 PP example would then be cast for all purposes as a 15th level spell -- including the requirement to have 15 ranks in the spell list. That is consistent with the idea of not scaling past an existing higher level spell, since in that case you would just use the higher level spell.

One of the reasons for limiting a scaled-up spell to being lesser than higher level spells is that, inevitably, there will be places in the scaling system that don't quite work. You don't want to have a higher-level spell rendered pointless because it's easier, cheaper, and faster to simply scale up a lower-level spell. It's a quick and easy safety check.

[Cory Magel]

According to TC, spells from items are cast at a level equal to the highest level spell needed to make the item.

That does make sense considering that the item is as powerful as the spells needed to create it.

[Peter R]

I'm not looking for agreement, rather opinions.

Should Spell Mastery be usable to increase the intensity of a spell, be that a multiple in hits with a bolt/ball spell, number of targets/radius, or increasing % of hits loss in a pain spell?  If the core rules state Spell Mastery cannot be used to turn a lower level spell into a higher level spell, does that mean a fire bolt could add +1 target but not +2 because then the spell resembles triad of fire?

I'm a curious soul and wonder what 99.9% looks like 
From RMSS: SPELL MASTERY: This skill allows user to modify spells within or beyond basic parameters. Each individual spell list requires separate skill development (as with Riding or Weapon skills). This skill might be used to change the orientation upon arrival of the target of a Teleport spell, or it might be used to allow a spell user to attempt to alter a Bolt spell into a Ball spell. The character should roll for a successful Spell Mastery using the Power Manipulation Static Action Table. The result may indicate success or failure, as well as provide a modifier to the Spell Casting Static Maneuver Roll. {Pr}

?

In your firebolt example the answer would be no. Firebolt and triad of fire are different spells. Fire Bolt I and Fire Bolt III are the 'same spell' so Fire Bolt III would define the absolute back stop. So you could attempt to turn a Firebolt into a weakened Fireball or extend the range beyond the the stated limit of the 100' but splitting it into Triad of Fire territory would be beyond the skill in my interpretation.