Topic: ICE Adventure Modules

[Marc R]

Actually what is needed is a new model of what works.  Back in the 80s, ICE was a great competitor for TSR.  Now, the industry has changed.  Paizo's formula of success is providing adventures.  Since their game system is based on the d20 System, they can OGL their system and provide it for free and have their Adventure Paths and Adventures sell.

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.  It doesn't matter if it comes from the First party or the Third Party, the adventures have to be well written and well illustrated.  Selling game rules isn't working out, since WotC is also in a world of hurt, losing to Paizo on a wider margin.  Granted its' because 4th didn't sell as well, but . . .

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.  It doesn't matter if it comes from the First party or the Third Party, the adventures have to be well written and well illustrated.

Man, I have been beating that bush for years now. (Over a decade, I believe.)

What I think will work out even better, and is really what Paizo is doing with their Adventure Path series, is combining a local setting with a campaign. So, not only do you get a series of adventures that combine to make a themed campaign, you get more information about another area of the game world in which to play. And, of course, you get some high production values - though I do not like their imagery for elves, way to thin & pointy ears for my tastes. (Actually, other than some specific creatures and NPCs, what I find I like best about their presentation is their cartography. I much prefer hand drawn and painted/colore maps than Campaign Cartographer and other computer program generated ones.)

While I'm not familiar with any of Paizo's products (I've had a couple of people tell me I should submit stuff to them, but I would rather see fewer sales and use with a truly great RPG system (such as Rolemaster) than be stuck with having my work associated with d20's mediocre system), I agree whole-heartily that hand drawn maps are usually much better to CC or similar types of maps.  That is one regret that I have with the past modules that I wrote for GCP, was the fact that I didn't use my original hand-drawn maps (or a newer version of them, since the originals were so faded and smudged from about two decades of use).  However the current project I'm working on I've re-drawn the old maps by hand and am scanning them in (most are simple pencil drawings (grey shades), however for some maps I've used colored pencils to provide better clarity), then have done some minor editing using software (for lettering and such, since my hand writing is atrocious).

The thing about adventures is that you can sell, at most, one copy per group. Whereas any book used to create characters can sell more than one copy per group. So the economics for adventures (and other GM-targeted materials) is worse right off the bat. If the user base for your system is big enough that's ok (e.g. Pathfinder, D&D) but for a small publisher it makes a big difference.

So generally you want to incorporate character options (training packages, races, spell lists, etc) into campaign books, so they are of interest to players as well as GMs.

The downside of this model is it creates system bloat and disorganization. Which can be mitigated to a limited extent with indexes (e.g. downloadable PDF of an index that spans all currently available books) but can get out of hand over time.

Speaking as just me, not an official response here, purely personal opinion.

I've written two adventures for GCP so far, "Muck and Mire" and "Dust to Dust" for the last two Guild Adventurer releases.

To some degree projects, time and effort will chase proven sales more than requests or opinions, so if you want to see more adventures produced, likely the best way to go about it would be to go purchase the adventures that are already available for sale.

I personally enjoy writing adventures, and I too like the smudgy pen and pencil maps, though the re-draws of my maps the more artistically able staff did were actually better looking and more coherently legible. 

I've mentioned it before, but I would love to see a regular schedule of releases for Shadow World. I'd be willing to pay a subscription a la Paizo to help this. I doubt that Paizo's output could be reached, but something every couple of months would be great. Even if it's only a 16-32 page supplement or adventure. I could probably come up with quite a few ideas for supplements myself; shame I can't actually write them.

A revamped system would be a good base to start releasing new products though.

EDIT: Incidentally, isn't there a new Guild Adventurer in process? Don't recall reading anything about it for a while.

The thing about adventures is that you can sell, at most, one copy per group. Whereas any book used to create characters can sell more than one copy per group. So the economics for adventures (and other GM-targeted materials) is worse right off the bat. If the user base for your system is big enough that's ok (e.g. Pathfinder, D&D) but for a small publisher it makes a big difference.

So generally you want to incorporate character options (training packages, races, spell lists, etc) into campaign books, so they are of interest to players as well as GMs.

The downside of this model is it creates system bloat and disorganization. Which can be mitigated to a limited extent with indexes (e.g. downloadable PDF of an index that spans all currently available books) but can get out of hand over time.

As for "bloat":  you need it from a publisher's point of view. Where else are you going to go if you are not putting out adventures? More rulebooks? While I don't think it is a bad thing, isn't that what so many complain about in RM2? All the companions and power creep. (Again, where are you going to go with power, if not up?) Everything is up or forward, that is all you have, so I think it is better to reconsile oneself with that fact, and just be prepared to do what you feel you need to, in order to make it so it is right for you (i.e., house rule).

Basically, a publisher can only stay alive if they publish. For a game line to stay alive, they need books, and you only have a few options: adventures, settings, and rulebooks. I think that the best is a combination of the three; something that is structured like an adventure, but has more setting informatino, and more rules in the form of more character and NPC/monster options. That makes it attractive to all players.

I've mentioned it before, but I would love to see a regular schedule of releases for Shadow World. I'd be willing to pay a subscription a la Paizo to help this. I doubt that Paizo's output could be reached, but something every couple of months would be great. Even if it's only a 16-32 page supplement or adventure. I could probably come up with quite a few ideas for supplements myself; shame I can't actually write them.

I would totally subscribe to a SW regular publication, probably in duplicate.

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.

I plan on addressing this myself on the Spacemaster front, once I've finished polishing up the errata. I'm probably going to start with a few short scenarios to add to the Vault, and see how those get received before trying anything larger.

[Marc R]

This is going to get off topic buried in the other thread, I can almost guarantee it, and I found the topic interesting, so I'm cloning it off into it's own thread, so that even if that happens, this conversation can continue.

[RandalThor]

Well, I know that for me, running a game like RM - a game with lots of parts - having published adventures is greatly desired. Complete with maps, NPCs, maybe a new creature or two, I just love them. Even if I won't use the way the adventure is written I can get all manner of use out of it, and maybe use it almost like it is written, just with a little tweek.

Tie those adventures in with a great setting, hey, like Shadow World (huh, who woulda thought?), and I am guaranteed to buy them.

[Marc R]

What you seem to be describing, sounds to me a lot like the style and content of the old MERP and SW supplements.

[Guillaume]

That's what has been lacking to RM for years.

Ok, once upon a time we had MERP modules and adventures... but they are things of the past.
Terry can't decently alone cope with the time requirements of a series of adventures à la Paizo. ( I don't want Shadow World out of his control. It has been done once and we ended up with The Orgillion Horror )

While keeping Shadow World what is needed to RM is a setting, with a real monthly ( or every two month ) follow up in adventures and campaigns.
I know that economically, what sells the most is the rulebooks ( several sets at a gaming table compared to 1 set of adventures for the gamemaster at the same gaming table ), but rulebooks without a support setting is a thing of the past.

Nowadays, in the society of Internet and high speed communication people want pre-hashed stuff that can be played really quickly. That will also mean that the old MERP and Shadow World way of describing things has to be changed at least in the designated adventure books ( or pdfs )... no more pages long of descriptions of the locations, but things more like what Shadowrun ( and a few other ) has always done : a short description of the adventure, and then the description of the first event of said adventure that starts it all, followed by a description of scenes or events until the end of the adventure. Each event/scene is complete with the details of the location, the NPCs and eventually the text said NPCs say. ( or what behavior it has )

Now I agree that it's a huge change from what has been made ( Area descriptions with quest outlines in a few lines, to be fleshed out by the GM ), but it's what makes the current games works.

[markc]

What you seem to be describing, sounds to me a lot like the style and content of the old MERP and SW supplements.

 +1.


 I am not a fan of the new Shadow World way of doing things as I sort of see it as a cop out or hand waving by the author because they cannot make the product. They can describe the "products" parts and how they should go together but there often are other ways to put the "product" together, also what they want to happen or envision happening does not work for your group in any way shape of form. The short story format also just seems as a way to pump out ideas quickly and often without testing them.
 But I might be in the minority and the above is my opinion only.
MDC

[RandalThor]

What you seem to be describing, sounds to me a lot like the style and content of the old MERP and SW supplements.

Sort of, they were mostly about setting with only a little dealing with adventure ideas. What I would like to see, is more dealing with adventures in that area, to the tune of at least 50% of the product being about the adventures.

And, I don't think the Ogrillion Horror module as bad, it may not convey a 100% feel for SW, but can't the world support multiple themes? I think so, and I can still use it, fully themed for SW with only a little work on my part. And, I am totally OK with Terry having final say on any SW product - him reading and making comments on something sent to him, still has to be easier and faster (overall) than him writing everything himself. (He does have a full-time job that has nothing to do with SW, after all.)

[stacktrace]

One thing the Pathfinder campaign world has going for it, is that it is made up of a huge amount of unique areas, each which could serve as a campaign world in its own right.  Each has a different feel, from gothic/horror, political intrigue, science-fantasy, indiana jones-ish, lost world, asian fantasy, etc. 

This means that every suppliment can contain a huge amount of interesting and new material and rules that still works with everything else.  And if the current area's hook doesn't grab you, come back in a couple months when they move onto the next one.  Also, as each area has its own flavor, it means multiple authors can work on the setting without worrying about muddying up each other's visions.

Now take Cyradon, if I do not buy into the presented hook of refuges coming to the world, I am not really going to be buying any further suppliments, because it has established its tone and setup, and I either dig it or I do not.  Now, that isn't to say Cyradon cannot be opened up to other areas, but the core book does not show that.  I am not given a good overview of all these thematic areas to get my imagination working, to inspire me to run a campaign in Cyradon rather than build my own world from scratch. 

Seriously flip through the Pathfinder campaign setting book at your local gamestore next time you are there, every two pages is its own entire campaign just jumping out at you, waiting to happen, complete with its unique hooks and background.

So I even if I choose to set my campaign in a portion of their world that has not yet been further developed, I am still buying into their campaign setting, and they have an entire line of products that are universal to the entire setting to entice me and my players.  And I want to set my campaign in their world if I can, because they provide the groundwork details that I personally do not care to do myself: languages, calendar, holidays, dieties/religions, cosmology, major power groups/factions, races, and both global and local history.

I admit to not really knowing much about Shadow World, but it seems to be a very interesting world with some unique ideas.  I fear though that it is too unique, and may not be appealing to enough people.  Appealing to a large number of your customer base does not mean being generic, it means bringing a multitude of options to the table to pick from, so that everyone can find something they can use.

Is it easy putting something like this together?  Heck no, I certainly could not do it, which is why I am willing to pay someone to do it for me.

[egdcltd]

MERP had some nice little series supplements, like the Fortresses. Not adventures as such, but mostly relatively small areas of the world covered in great detail. Picking a region and starting to flesh out areas in more detail with supplements like these, city books and adventures would be nice.

[Arioch]

While don't really like Pathfinder adventures (too long and too linear for my tastes), but I agree that RM and HARP need more modules focusing on short, ready to run adventures.

[DangerMan]

I think Shadow World is just awesome and should indeed be ICEs main focus in this respect. The only thing I miss is more maps.

IMO ICE should lend Mr. Amthor a hand in establishing a webpage with maps, timelines etc etc for GMs. I for one would be more than willing to pay to use such a webpage.

[RandalThor]

One thing the Pathfinder campaign world has going for it, is that it is made up of a huge amount of unique areas, each which could serve as a campaign world in its own right.  Each has a different feel, from gothic/horror, political intrigue, science-fantasy, indiana jones-ish, lost world, asian fantasy, etc. 

This means that every suppliment can contain a huge amount of interesting and new material and rules that still works with everything else.  And if the current area's hook doesn't grab you, come back in a couple months when they move onto the next one.  Also, as each area has its own flavor, it means multiple authors can work on the setting without worrying about muddying up each other's visions.

While I don't agree with the word unique, I would say thematically differrent. But, I think SW is a much better place for that, I mean, while Emer is a nice, big continent, the rest of the world is made up of minor-continents and island chains. Much more separation to explain such wide range of flavors.

The only problem with SW that I have is the "east", I don't like it that the world is cut in half like that, though I can live with it. When I run SW I just get rid of that and increase the size of the west to incompass the whole world. Yes, that means Emer is even larger (which I think is not only fine, but needed to support such huge mega-fauna, like giants and dragons*). The Eyes of Utha don't seperate the east/west, but have shunted the old Essaence Lords (K'ta'viiri - spelling?) into a demi-dimension. I just like that better, even if it has been used before.

I think Shadow World is just awesome and should indeed be ICEs main focus in this respect. The only thing I miss is more maps.

IMO ICE should lend Mr. Amthor a hand in establishing a webpage with maps, timelines etc etc for GMs. I for one would be more than willing to pay to use such a webpage.

Yes, yes, more maps. Love me some maps - but not computer generated ones, hand drawn, please.

Not sure if I like the idea of paying to use a webpage, but I am all good for subscribing to SW "paths."


*This could be its own thread: How on Earth do mega-fauna survive? If a Tiger needs hundreds of square miles, what does a troop of ogres need?

[Guillaume]

IMO ICE should lend Mr. Amthor a hand in establishing a webpage with maps, timelines etc etc for GMs. I for one would be more than willing to pay to use such a webpage.

Vroomfogle used to host the Nomikos Library that contained the full timeline.
( based on a word document from the mailing list that was the sum of all the timelines from the books )

Not sure where website went nor when it went away.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

So much stuff in this thread to talk about.

Some official answers:
Adventures and settings are coming, not just TGA#4 but full-blown adventure modules.

Shadow World sourcebooks do now contain more adventure material than before and will continue to do so.

There are Shadow World modules at various stages of development by people other than Terry, but which will be approved by Terry.

Cyradon is getting adventures, not just for the Cyradon continent, but elsewhere, and the latter will help to provide other options for Gryphon World adventuring. (Or they can be used in other worlds)

Some of the adventure modules underway are part settings as well (nod to Aaron Smalley upthread and Chris Seal)

We will be doing calls for adventure sets for Shadow World and Gryphon World in the future, but current priorities are the HARP relaunch of its core books and RMU into and through Playtest

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[vroomfogle]

Vroomfogle used to host the Nomikos Library that contained the full timeline.
( based on a word document from the mailing list that was the sum of all the timelines from the books )

Not sure where website went nor when it went away.

It's been a while now since I let my home server go (and once it was gone I realized how much electricity it had been sucking up).

I was actually just recently trying to get the old entries imported into a new database, although the old wordpress version of the site was klunky, was bad at searching, and was so modified from wordpress that it would be difficult to get running again.   So the timeline will be available again at some point, just not sure in what form, or when.

[providence13]

MERP had some nice little series supplements, like the Fortresses. Not adventures as such, but mostly relatively small areas of the world covered in great detail. Picking a region and starting to flesh out areas in more detail with supplements like these, city books and adventures would be nice.

+1
I know the ICE can't touch these, but they were/are still great reference books. I wonder how 0one games can produce maps that are nearly the spitting image of old TSR material? Don't want to sound lazy, but I like their stuff and support it with my $, but I'd support ICE as well, if given more of a chance.

[egdcltd]

MERP had some nice little series supplements, like the Fortresses. Not adventures as such, but mostly relatively small areas of the world covered in great detail. Picking a region and starting to flesh out areas in more detail with supplements like these, city books and adventures would be nice.

+1
I know the ICE can't touch these, but they were/are still great reference books. I wonder how 0one games can produce maps that are nearly the spitting image of old TSR material? Don't want to sound lazy, but I like their stuff and support it with my $, but I'd support ICE as well, if given more of a chance.

I imagine that there wouldn't be any problem following the format of the Fortresses series. Pick a place - say a watchtower of U-Lyshak - and explore it the same way: Background (and history), Layout, Garrison (both through various time periods maybe) and Adventures.

[smug]

The old MERP modules were very good (on the whole) and although the Middle-Earth license is long gone, I don't see why the style can't continue. For that matter, the old SW modules were also very good (on the whole). So long as Terry gets to OK stuff before it's published (and is OK with the fact that it won't all be entirely in keeping with how he would have done it) I think it could be pretty good to have other people writing them.

Someone mentioned Paizo's modules as long and linear; they're referring to the Adventure Paths, I assume, and not the bi-monthly modules they also produce. Frog God Games also make short -- one or two-night -- Pathfinder modules. I would say, though, and from what I understand from what they've written and said in the (unofficial) Paizo chatroom, that what Paizo have found is that the Adventure Path model, in succession to Dungeon and Dragon (as it also contains non-module material in each instalment), sells. They had the Dungeon/Dragon springboard -- a captive market! -- but they revitalised Dungeon, in fact, with the first Adventure Path (Shackled City). It's a lot of effort, though, akin to magazine production, and they have a permanent staff to edit it, make the pages and commission the art, plus reliable freelancers to write it (I think only one really let them down badly, during Second Darkness, where they had to get a short-notice instalment written and it wasn't so great) and produce that art people like. Paizo's maybe the most successful producer of campaign material -- for sales and market penetration -- since old ICE, though, or maybe ever, and it's probably the most stable and best-run RPG company in the industry (and in terms of permanent staff probably close to being the biggest).

I think the Frog God model might be better; they've been making great adventure modules for ages (in their previous incarnation as Necromancer). Goodman Games, although aiming at a specific niche, also did pretty well. Being the company that makes the rules and the modules, however, is apparently hard; Paizo and Chaosium do it well and Goodman are now in that role, but WotC didn't do so well at it, old ICE largely abandoned it and companies like Catalyst seem fairly cold on the idea.

[Elton Robb]

I still have a copy of Tales of the Loremasters and Norek: City of Intrigue.

I think it's tough to do an open ended adventure area, but I think it's doable.  Typically, in Computer Games, the Elder Scrolls series was good at this.  The rest of the CRPGs were heavily linear.  Even World of Warcraft is linear in its design.

The Frog God model -- mini-campaigns -- works because you have a lot of leeway.  Strangely, I think that B1 -- The Keep on the Borderlands -- is an early example of a mini-campaign.  You generally go in and clear out the caves of Chaos.  And you can pick any cave to go in and clear.

It's also not a coincidence that WotC picked B1 for their play test adventure.

[Guillaume]

  So the timeline will be available again at some point, just not sure in what form, or when.

Well I can probably dig out the word file in the meantime.