Topic: ICE -- Zombie of the industry

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

1) if it is a time choice between making a post on a forum or writing an email that pushes a product further along, or finalising a contract, or writing a section of a book, etc., I always have to choose the latter. I learned long ago when writing Mentalism Companion that I could either stay involved in the Silent Tower mailing list discussions or write the book. Fortunately with Colin, Thom, John, and other authors & editors pitching in, you probably won't even miss me!

2) I normally expect 50% of all freelance projects to fail to reach a handed-in manuscript. Real life has a tendency to derail even the best-intended folks.

3) John has covered that one.

4) I probably will be in Indianapolis next year for the day job, all being well. Unfortunately there's a huge gap between the dates of M&M 2013 and GenCon Indy 2013. I will doubtless have to be content with trying to get to Dragonmeet and UK Games Expo.

5) the second unified Rolemaster manuscript escaped Gamma overnight, so one more to come and then I'll hand the trio over for some modest layout.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[egdcltd]

There just aren't as many bricks and mortar stores as there used to be. Of the ones I used to use, the following have shut:

Two different local chains, each with three shops.
Two different local one off shops.
One national chain.

There is also one local shop that may or may not still exist and may or may not sell RPGs still. I don't know, haven't been near there in years.

The only place I've used that does still exist is Games Workshop, and I don't think they sell anyone else's stuff. I know they did stop quite some time ago, don't know if they've restarted.

[Wolfhound]

Thanks for the update on the status of things, Nicholas.  We know that you have your hands full and have very little free time.  Also, sorry if my previous post came across wrong as if I was complaining, as that was certainly not my intention.  Alot of us were just curious as to how things were progressing (kind of like puppies begging for scraps from the masters table while he eats... as lame as that may sound).

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Arms Law, Spell Law and Character Law have been sent for some very modest layout - as soon as I get at least one back, the Public Playtest will open.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Wolfhound]

Fantastic!  We are anxiously awaiting.

[Elton Robb]

Actually what is needed is a new model of what works.  Back in the 80s, ICE was a great competitor for TSR.  Now, the industry has changed.  Paizo's formula of success is providing adventures.  Since their game system is based on the d20 System, they can OGL their system and provide it for free and have their Adventure Paths and Adventures sell.

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.  It doesn't matter if it comes from the First party or the Third Party, the adventures have to be well written and well illustrated.  Selling game rules isn't working out, since WotC is also in a world of hurt, losing to Paizo on a wider margin.  Granted its' because 4th didn't sell as well, but . . .

[RandalThor]

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.  It doesn't matter if it comes from the First party or the Third Party, the adventures have to be well written and well illustrated.

Man, I have been beating that bush for years now. (Over a decade, I believe.)

What I think will work out even better, and is really what Paizo is doing with their Adventure Path series, is combining a local setting with a campaign. So, not only do you get a series of adventures that combine to make a themed campaign, you get more information about another area of the game world in which to play. And, of course, you get some high production values - though I do not like their imagery for elves, way to thin & pointy ears for my tastes. (Actually, other than some specific creatures and NPCs, what I find I like best about their presentation is their cartography. I much prefer hand drawn and painted/colore maps than Campaign Cartographer and other computer program generated ones.)

[Wolfhound]

While I'm not familiar with any of Paizo's products (I've had a couple of people tell me I should submit stuff to them, but I would rather see fewer sales and use with a truly great RPG system (such as Rolemaster) than be stuck with having my work associated with d20's mediocre system), I agree whole-heartily that hand drawn maps are usually much better to CC or similar types of maps.  That is one regret that I have with the past modules that I wrote for GCP, was the fact that I didn't use my original hand-drawn maps (or a newer version of them, since the originals were so faded and smudged from about two decades of use).  However the current project I'm working on I've re-drawn the old maps by hand and am scanning them in (most are simple pencil drawings (grey shades), however for some maps I've used colored pencils to provide better clarity), then have done some minor editing using software (for lettering and such, since my hand writing is atrocious). 

[jdale]

The thing about adventures is that you can sell, at most, one copy per group. Whereas any book used to create characters can sell more than one copy per group. So the economics for adventures (and other GM-targeted materials) is worse right off the bat. If the user base for your system is big enough that's ok (e.g. Pathfinder, D&D) but for a small publisher it makes a big difference.

So generally you want to incorporate character options (training packages, races, spell lists, etc) into campaign books, so they are of interest to players as well as GMs.

The downside of this model is it creates system bloat and disorganization. Which can be mitigated to a limited extent with indexes (e.g. downloadable PDF of an index that spans all currently available books) but can get out of hand over time.

[Marc R]

Speaking as just me, not an official response here, purely personal opinion.

I've written two adventures for GCP so far, "Muck and Mire" and "Dust to Dust" for the last two Guild Adventurer releases.

To some degree projects, time and effort will chase proven sales more than requests or opinions, so if you want to see more adventures produced, likely the best way to go about it would be to go purchase the adventures that are already available for sale.

I personally enjoy writing adventures, and I too like the smudgy pen and pencil maps, though the re-draws of my maps the more artistically able staff did were actually better looking and more coherently legible. 

[egdcltd]

I've mentioned it before, but I would love to see a regular schedule of releases for Shadow World. I'd be willing to pay a subscription a la Paizo to help this. I doubt that Paizo's output could be reached, but something every couple of months would be great. Even if it's only a 16-32 page supplement or adventure. I could probably come up with quite a few ideas for supplements myself; shame I can't actually write them.

A revamped system would be a good base to start releasing new products though.

EDIT: Incidentally, isn't there a new Guild Adventurer in process? Don't recall reading anything about it for a while.

[RandalThor]

The thing about adventures is that you can sell, at most, one copy per group. Whereas any book used to create characters can sell more than one copy per group. So the economics for adventures (and other GM-targeted materials) is worse right off the bat. If the user base for your system is big enough that's ok (e.g. Pathfinder, D&D) but for a small publisher it makes a big difference.

So generally you want to incorporate character options (training packages, races, spell lists, etc) into campaign books, so they are of interest to players as well as GMs.

The downside of this model is it creates system bloat and disorganization. Which can be mitigated to a limited extent with indexes (e.g. downloadable PDF of an index that spans all currently available books) but can get out of hand over time.

As for "bloat":  you need it from a publisher's point of view. Where else are you going to go if you are not putting out adventures? More rulebooks? While I don't think it is a bad thing, isn't that what so many complain about in RM2? All the companions and power creep. (Again, where are you going to go with power, if not up?) Everything is up or forward, that is all you have, so I think it is better to reconsile oneself with that fact, and just be prepared to do what you feel you need to, in order to make it so it is right for you (i.e., house rule).

Basically, a publisher can only stay alive if they publish. For a game line to stay alive, they need books, and you only have a few options: adventures, settings, and rulebooks. I think that the best is a combination of the three; something that is structured like an adventure, but has more setting informatino, and more rules in the form of more character and NPC/monster options. That makes it attractive to all players.

I've mentioned it before, but I would love to see a regular schedule of releases for Shadow World. I'd be willing to pay a subscription a la Paizo to help this. I doubt that Paizo's output could be reached, but something every couple of months would be great. Even if it's only a 16-32 page supplement or adventure. I could probably come up with quite a few ideas for supplements myself; shame I can't actually write them.

I would totally subscribe to a SW regular publication, probably in duplicate.

[GrumpyOldFart]

The downside of this model is it creates system bloat and disorganization. Which can be mitigated to a limited extent with indexes (e.g. downloadable PDF of an index that spans all currently available books) but can get out of hand over time.

As for "bloat":  you need it from a publisher's point of view. Where else are you going to go if you are not putting out adventures? More rulebooks? While I don't think it is a bad thing, isn't that what so many complain about in RM2? All the companions and power creep.

This can also be mitigated (and in the case of newer ICE products I have no doubt this is already happening) by plotting things out on spreadsheets. As an example of this, the rules for creating new spells in HARP College of Magics. If all those same rules are applied to all the existing spells, you know their power is balanced before a single player ever casts one. If new spells are published as part of an adventure module, you know in advance that all the new spells will be balanced with the old ones, as long as they've been run through the same process. No power creep, because if a spell's actually more powerful, it's also more expensive to cast.

Trying to apply that kind of model to a skill system is more difficult, but I'm not convinced it's impossible. Combating skill bloat is a matter of precisely defining where skills do and do not overlap, and to what degree.

While I would be extremely wary of adding new skills per se in an adventure module, new fighting styles and new combat maneuvers could be a selling point that doesn't really bloat the skill base. Like new spells, you're not really adding new skills, you're adding new subskills. People could cast spells, make combat maneuvers and use fighting styles already.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I've mentioned it before, but I would love to see a regular schedule of releases for Shadow World. I'd be willing to pay a subscription a la Paizo to help this. I doubt that Paizo's output could be reached, but something every couple of months would be great. Even if it's only a 16-32 page supplement or adventure. I could probably come up with quite a few ideas for supplements myself; shame I can't actually write them.

A revamped system would be a good base to start releasing new products though.

EDIT: Incidentally, isn't there a new Guild Adventurer in process? Don't recall reading anything about it for a while.

Yes, but I keep nabbing Craig for stuff such as the new Rolemaster. TGA#4 will come out - it will get updates for the new changes to HARP and probably unified RM - it just finds itself awkwardly located in the system switchover at the moment.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[John @ ICE]

Well seems to be mostly agreement on where to go.  I firmly believe that this round of RM will be IT.  THE GAME.  They dont rewrite the rules for RISK every year and I dont know why they need to do it for an RPG with 30 years of history or one with 40 years of history UNLESS what you have done in the past needs to be fixed.

ICE needs to fix the verson proliferation problem and provide a system which takes the best of all versions and will satisfy most of the people most of the time.  D&D needs to do the same...sort of...but really they need to fix the crapola that is D&D 4 (sorry if I offended anyone but I'm old school AD&D 2.0).

Can there be some rules supplements from time to time? sure - in particular when they support a setting.  But also alot of these products becomes unhelpful.  That really leaves settings and adventures. But also it can include support products too.  e-support, maps, posters, minis etc.  What about a "living setting" where news is coming out on a constant basis about changes in the world or a particular city via twitter as a way to enhance the time leading up to game night?  So beside physical products we may also have services.

And what about tournaments, competitions and prizes?  Right now we ar thinking about  a way for teams to run a torunament on fantasy grounds and compete for prizes.  This is at best a 2013 event and may take longer, but again we need to think of all the forms of entertainment we can provide which I think is what ICE should be about in its FULLEST form.

Now, I know people love to hold us to what we said and can remember the most obscure comments said in passing, so I'll just say we need to crawl before we walk and walk before we run and right now we are crawling, so it will take time to do all this stuff and do it well.

[LonePaladin]

Apparently, what the market today craves is well written adventures.

I plan on addressing this myself on the Spacemaster front, once I've finished polishing up the errata. I'm probably going to start with a few short scenarios to add to the Vault, and see how those get received before trying anything larger.