Topic: How detailed of a currency system is good for a fantasy game.

[pyrotech]

I've continued developing my fantasy settings for HARP and have started on the economy and currency details.  While creating a currency system for each of the two broad regions of my setting I've found myself asking "how detailed of a system do people really want for a fantasy setting?".

My current assumption is to use a hybrid system that takes the generic fantasy currency system in the HARP books and expands it out with a few additional coins and plenty of extra details about the coins.  It lacks the rich detail of a real world currency system, but also lacks it hideous complexity and math unfriendliness as well. 

Here is a bit of what I've been working on (please excuse it's completely unedited state):

In the Bastion the long life spans of the demi-human natives and the structure of the Pact of Light stabilized trade and currency throughout the region.  Not even the coming of Man with all their own coins and disruptive habits caused many drastic changes (the destruction of the Orcish culture and civilization being a major exception).  When the Empire of Man joined the Pact of Light, Herrod officially standardized the Empires currency to match that of the Pact (although this had already been unofficially done for quite a while).  The basic unit of currency here is a copper token stamped with the symbol of the minting nation on one side and Vestment on the other.  The copper token contains some silver at about 1 measure silver to 20 measures copper.  The most common coin used is the silver penny, showing the symbol of the minting nation and the oath of the Pact of Light in runic on the other.  The silver penny consists of about 90% silver with the remainder being copper, bronze, or brass depending on the mint.  The highest value coin commonly used is the gold mark.  The gold mark is struck 20 measures of gold to 3 measures silver and 2 measures copper.  The gold mark also shows the symbol of the minting nation on one face, but the other is a ring of 10 circles representing its 10 penny value.  The most valuable coin used by nations of Bastion is the platinum sovereign pound.  The platinum pound represents the value of one pound of pure silver.  This coin is struck 10 parts platinum to 1 part gold to 1 part silver, with a depiction of Bastion on one face and the minting nation’s symbol on the other (however this coin is struck almost exclusively by the Dwarves).  These coins are all exchanged at the rate of 10 to 1 of the next highest denomination.  Thus 1 sovereign pound is worth 10 gold marks, 100 silver pennies, or 1000 copper tokens.  Each type of coin varies slightly in size and weight but are all about 100 to a pound.

This is the simpler of the two currencies, the Fallen Marches still have your basic copper, silver, gold, and platinum coins but adds several intermediate coins as well.

So my question is if this is enough detail, too much detail, or not detailed enough.  I plan on rewriting this for readability, fixing any errors I spot and add some tables eventually, but I'm just wondering how much detail do people like in their setting's currency.

Thanks,

Pyrotech

[markc]

 IMHO that is great detail. The only problem I have seen in when players do not want to deal with strange exchange rates or strange amounts. So for example 140 X's = 3 Y's is not going to go over big IMHO.
MDC

[intothatdarkness]

Mine was based on 10s, with a reduction of between 10-30% when taking coins from one realm to another (to cover reminting costs). There were, of course, trade bars that circumvented those rules, but they're intended for large transactions or movement of wealth. I didn't get into percentage of metals in coins, but took it from a "how much will it cost to remint" and/or "can we take outside currency in this small village" point of view.

[jdale]

I think it depends on the players. If you have players who are interested in things like currency speculation, you can't have too much detail. If your players just want loot, they aren't going to pay much attention.

Also, are you going to use the detail? E.g. the silver penny has slightly different compositions based on where it is minted. That's cool if it later becomes relevant to figure out where someone is coming from.

[pyrotech]

For my games I intend to keep a debasement plot on the back burner to act as an adventure seed.  Either a crime lord is running a counterfeiting/debasement racquet, or a demon of greed is manipulating a minting official to debase the money in an attempt to tempt mortals and sow discontent.  In these cases this level of detail will matter, but for the most part it is just color to make the setting seem more believable.

I'd post my more complicated system except for the fact that it isn't completely written down yet.  No funny conversions but it does have some sub-copper coins from metal poor societies plus some non-decade based conversion rates.  I placed these between the standard cp, sp, gp, pp coins to allow the familiar decade conversions and the existing book prices - but to still allow for some variation in the value of the coins they can get. 

I also insured I had a name for every coin.  I've found that most of the roleplaying gain from more detailed money is in just having a name for the coins other than "gold piece". 

Thanks,

Pyrotech

[RandalThor]

That is a hard question to answer, for me at least. Sometimes I don't want to be bothered with a detailed economic system because that is not what a particualr campaign is about. Other times, when the campaign is about that level of detail, I think it is great that you can tell the players exactly what type of coins they found in the [insert creature-type here] lair.

Just like in RL, old coins could/should be worth more than the metal they are made with, due to rarity and a variety of other reasons. And they can be used as clues in an adventure/campaign. ("The coins we found on the orcs, bore the image of an ancient Khath emporer! You know what this means, don't you?!? They must have somehow connected their home caverns to some ruins of the Khath Empire, which fell nearly 1000 years ago, and where the Staff of Urha is said to be located!!! Now, all we have to do, is find the orcs home caves, make our way through them, and locate the tunnel to the ruins of ancient Khath. Easy.")

[GrumpyOldFart]

Exactly. Currency complexities are worth precisely as much hassle and housekeeping as balances out the flavor they add to the game. In my game, the local dwarven country uses a given carat weight of _____ semi precious or precious stone partially wrapped in _____ given weight of wire of _____ metal as its "coins". Gold may be fairly easy to devalue without the average user spotting it, but lapis lazuli is pretty hard to "forge" without your average dwarf noticing.

That could get complicated if I had a geologist among my players, but as it is, all it does is provide a very distinct "dwarven flavor" to actions that take place among them. If I was running a campaign whose characters were all thieves, counterfeiters and political intriguers, with maybe a jeweler or lapidary thrown in, little details like those would start to matter much more, and my "nobody will notice or care" attitude toward small things tangential to typical adventuring would get me in trouble.

[intothatdarkness]

That is a hard question to answer, for me at least. Sometimes I don't want to be bothered with a detailed economic system because that is not what a particualr campaign is about. Other times, when the campaign is about that level of detail, I think it is great that you can tell the players exactly what type of coins they found in the [insert creature-type here] lair.

Just like in RL, old coins could/should be worth more than the metal they are made with, due to rarity and a variety of other reasons. And they can be used as clues in an adventure/campaign. ("The coins we found on the orcs, bore the image of an ancient Khath emporer! You know what this means, don't you?!? They must have somehow connected their home caverns to some ruins of the Khath Empire, which fell nearly 1000 years ago, and where the Staff of Urha is said to be located!!! Now, all we have to do, is find the orcs home caves, make our way through them, and locate the tunnel to the ruins of ancient Khath. Easy.")

My currency is all named based on realms, and I do have the ancient coin thing going on as well. If the party's smart, they'll take the old money to larger cities. Otherwise it will get discounted as "another strange coin" by the local moneychanger (who may actually know what it's worth and is looking to 'deal' the PCs).

[RandalThor]

My currency is all named based on realms, and I do have the ancient coin thing going on as well. If the party's smart, they'll take the old money to larger cities. Otherwise it will get discounted as "another strange coin" by the local moneychanger (who may actually know what it's worth and is looking to 'deal' the PCs).

Oh yeah, I've done that a time or two, myself.

Of course, there have been those times when the Coins themselves were a clue, but the players totally missed it because all they thought was: "MONEY!!!" I had even gone so far as to describe the coins and all that, using some of the shapes I had encountered in my recent trip to Europe. In America, all coins are the same universally boring shape of round, not round with holes (round or square), not octagons, nothing cool like that. In fact, even though they have different sizes, the sizes don't really make sense to their worth, like a dime (10-cents) is smaller than both a nickel (5-cents) and a penny (1-cents).

[intothatdarkness]

I've done the same thing...using money as clues, that is. Sometimes they get it...other times they don't.

My coins tend to be sized according to worth, for the most part, anyhow. There are exceptions, which players started to figure out eventually. Especially after the adventure when the coins carried by a group of "bandits" turned out to be a significant clue to their actual origin and purpose....

[GrumpyOldFart]

A common value to weight conversion I've seen is 64 coins to the pound, regardless of denomination. So each coin would weigh a smidge over 7 grams, or about 1 1/3 times the weight of a US nickel.

So the volume of a coin by metal type:

1 cp = .78 cubic centimeters
1 sp = .66 cubic centimeters
1 gp = .36 cubic centimeters
1 pp = .33 cubic centimeters

For reference/comparison:

US Penny   = .44  cubic centimeters
US Nickel    = .69 cubic centimeters
US Dime     = .34 cubic centimeters
US Quarter = .81 cubic centimeters

So gold and platinum would be about the volume of a dime, silver would be about the volume of a nickel, and copper would be about the volume of a quarter, each weighing about 7 grams. Note that this makes no distinctions for shape, thickness, milled edges, etc. The "copper piece" could be the shape of a marble, or a 11/16" long piece of 1/8" copper tubing.

If you really wanted to be a pain about it, you could have different cultures using different weights and measures as well, so that the dwarves' "copper piece" isn't the same weight as the humans' "copper piece", and etc. If you wanted to get extra crazy, you could do a variation on what I did with dwarves, and decide that the elves' "money" is actually plant parts of various kinds. 1 bite of the basic all purpose food herb is the copper piece, but the seed of a tree that will grow into a house is the platinum piece, or whatever.

[markc]

  Wow spherical $, now if it is hard enough you can use it instead of marbles to trip up your pursuer's, that is if you want to wast the coin that is.
MDC

[pastaav]

In general I prefer the coins to have a very standardized value. Prices is hard enough if you only need to think about the value of the wares. Adding different values of coins on top of that might be a bit too complicated. On the other hand having details of this kind makes it more interesting to with counterfeiting.

In any case I think it is thin line to walk if you want to satisfy both those who want details and does who want it simple.

[pyrotech]

Well I've gotten the other currency system written down finally.  Both systems are based on the system created by the Dread Lord of Accounting and Records to keep records of mortal transaction, which explains their similarities.

This one is slightly more complicated but still follows the powers of 10 and standard coin types to make it easier to integrate with the core books.

Let me know what you think (again please forgive the lack of editing).



The smallest coin commonly used by the Citadels is the bronze “finger”.  Like all Citadel coins it has the symbol of its minting Citadel on one face, but an image of a hand with an outstretched index finger on the other.  This coin is almost pure 8 to 1 copper to tin and is used mostly for trivial purchases and making change. 

A larger denomination of bronze coin struck 40 copper to 2  tin to 1 measure of silver is called the “hand”.  The reverse face of this coin shows a hand with 5 fingers extended and is exchanged at 5 fingers to 1 hand.  The finger and hand coins were used primarily by metal poorer Citadels before the re-establishment of trade.  They are mostly used for minor purchases and making change now.

The next most valuable coin used in the Fallen March is the copper “cap” coin.  The cap is typically struck 20 measures copper to one measure silver and valued at 2 hands or 10 fingers to a cap.  The reverse of the cap shows an image of the distinctive “Caravaneer’s Cap” worn by many of the traveling merchants through the land.  The cap is one of the most frequently used coins in the Fallen March, and the primary coin used by poorer citizens throughout the Citadels.

The least valuable “silver” coin used in the Fallen March is the silver and bronze “Moon”.  The moon shows an image of waxing moon on its reverse face.  The silver moon is struck 20 measures copper to 8 measures silver to one measure tin.  Although technically still a bronze coin its high silver content usually causes it to be referred to as a silver coin.  The silver moon and its higher value cousin the silver sun were both high denomination coins from metal poor citadels before trade was restored.  These are uncommon coins in most regions partially due to their lower value but also because of the tendency of regions suffering from lycanthropy to use them to craft silver weapons.  A silver moon is valued at 4 caps or 40 fingers.

A similar coin to the silver moon is the silver sun.  The silver sun is another high silver content bronze coin from metal poor citadels but is struck at 20 measures copper to 10 measures silver to one measure tin.  As could be imagined the sun has an image of the radiant sun on its reverse face - although its exact styling changes from mint to mint.  The sun is less commonly used than the cap or dagger but is very popular in the Apple Islands.  The silver sun is valued at 5 caps or 50 fingers.

The most commonly used coin through the Fallen Marches is the silver “dagger”.  The dagger is called such because of the image of a single small blade stamped onto the reverse face of this coin.  The silver dagger is struck 10 measures silver to one measure copper and exchanged at a rate of 10 copper caps or 100 bronze fingers to one silver dagger.  The silver dagger and its larger cousin the twin are often lacquered different colors and used as symbols for different cults, orders, and organizations.

A double weight version of the silver dagger is also created by some Citadels.  It is twice the thickness of the silver dagger but the same size otherwise which occasionally causes some confusion.  This coin is struck with a pair of crossed daggers on the reverse face and typically called the “twin”.  Black lacquered “twins” are often used by murder cults and assassins as symbols which has sometimes given this coin a rather sinister reputation.  The twin is valued at 2 silver daggers, or 20 copper caps or 200 bronze fingers.  The twin is also notable for being an exception to the 100 coins to a pound rule of thumb - running closer to 50 coins to a pound instead.

One of the less common coins in the Fallen Marches is the silver and gold “sword”.  This coin is sometimes called an electrum coin, but typically only dwarven and gnomish minters actually use naturally found electrum to strike it.  Most mints strike it at 10 measures silver to 1 measure copper to one measure gold.  It is struck with a larger blade on the reverse face, but different mints often use different versions of swords.  Some dwarven minters using natural electrum deposits will even use an axe instead of a sword on the reverse.  Irregardless of the image used these coins are typically valued at 5 silver daggers, or 500 bronze fingers.

The most valuable coin commonly used in the Fallen Marches is the golden “crown”.  Struck at 20 measures gold to 3 measures silver to 2 measures copper it shows an image of a crown on its reverse face.  After the demonfall many Citadels lacked sufficient gold to mint coins, but the reestablishment of trade routes between Citadels and the creation of the Kingdoms of Dreams has brought gold coins back throughout the Fallen Marches.  The golden crown is valued at 10 silver daggers, 100 copper caps, or 1000 bronze fingers.

The most valuable coin struck in the Fallen Marches is a platinum coin typically called a “dragon” or a “hoard”.  It is struck 10 measures platinum to 1 measure gold to 1 measure silver and bears an image of a dragon circling a mound of treasure.  This coin is somewhat uncommon due to its value and typically only used for large transactions.  A single platinum dragon is worth more than a laborer makes in two months of work, and not even most typical nobles carry more than a few of these at a time.  The platinum dragon is valued at 10 gold crowns, 100 silver daggers, 1000 copper caps, or 10000 bronze fingers.

[markc]

  I like it. But I wonder as a writing aspect if it would be better to to split out the fact that "these" types of coins were typically minted or not minted at the metal poor citadels is a separate paragraph. IMHO it saves some reading repetition for the reader.


 Another note that maybe you have already figured out is that during metal poor times people will generally switch to other types of currency, such as gems, wood, amber, beer, etc. Anything that is worth more coin than standard and is easier to transport.


MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

Note on general economics: Hoarding.

Any place that is "poor" in a given resource, whether it's coin metal, industrial metal, stone, food, water, whatever, is going to hoard to a degree that reflects the scarcity of the resource. In the case of coin metal, this will give coins made from those metals a value beyond that expected by those who minted the coins. RM's "Mithril pieces" can easily become problematic because they are made of not only a precious metal, but one that makes superior weapons and etc. A culture that had no iron and no copper, nor anything to trade for them, would constantly be trying to convert silver, gold and platinum to other denominations that could be used as industrial metals. Copper pieces would likely be more valuable than silver pieces, and perhaps even more valuable than gold.

Things get really ugly when the resource in question is something that simply can't be gotten around or done without, like water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_empire