Topic: Making Profession in Area Stand Out from Other Areas

[markc]

But not if the fighters in question are Comanches. Long blades would be one of their worst weapon skills, and the entire concept of armor would be alien to them.

When I first read this, I had the vision of plate armored Authurian knights charging against a horde of unarmored American Indian warriors.  That would be a massacre.


 On which side? Who would try and fight like the other?
MDC

rmfr

[arakish]

You definitely went into the more "harsh" realm there...

And it would depend on how humans look towards Elves.  On my world of Onaviu, Elves were blamed for being the reason for the epidemic that nearly wiped out all life within just one year.  Another species of people called the Hatharnd appeared from nowhere and aided the humans against the Elves.  The result, the Hatharnd are the saviours and the Elves are the evil ones.

Back on subject, I am like GOF.  I have been working a character generation system that is similar to Tim Dugger's "Irregular Realms" article.  In fact, I was already working on this myself when GOF directed me to that article.  Needless to say, I am still working on it.

In other words, there is only one generic Layman-like profession.  The player is then allowed to alter DevPnt costs to specialize into a more "standard" profession such as a fighter, rogue, magus, etc.

rmfr

[arakish]

But not if the fighters in question are Comanches. Long blades would be one of their worst weapon skills, and the entire concept of armor would be alien to them.

When I first read this, I had the vision of plate armored Authurian knights charging against a horde of unarmored American Indian warriors.  That would be a massacre.

rmfr

 On which side? Who would try and fight like the other?
MDC

You choose.  The battle could go either way if you really think about it.  There are far too many factors that could aid it either way.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

It probably would, yes... but I'm not prepared to assume that it would be the indians who would be massacred.

Let's just say it didn't work out as expected when Colonel Fetterman tried it. True, his soldiers weren't armored, but they were better armed and better organized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Fetterman

Roosevelt called the Comanche "the finest light cavalry in the world" because of their tactical ability, not because of their combat strength.

 

[Thom @ ICE]

Sounds like a Deadliest Warrior episode....
Actually, that was Apache against Gladiator  or Comanche vs Mongol  or Crazy Horse vs Pancho Villa.
The knight fought the pirate.

Note - Apache was determined to beat the Gladiator.  Comanche beat the Mongol. Pancho Villa beat Crazy Horse and Pirate beat the Knight.

[intothatdarkness]

When you're adventuring in a realm that has a 98% human population and the entire party (six members) are High Elves I tend to consider that pretty improbable...especially when there's no good reason for them to be there and the nearest elven realm is over 500 miles away.

True, but

Instead, do what occurs in pretty-much every human culture ever: Have prejudice be a part of the scene. So, if they insist on all of them being non-human, but the campaign is set primarily in human lands,they can suffer some serious social disadvantages. ("Damn dirty wood elves can't shop here! They hog all the good hunting grounds in the Woods of Dark Renown" Nope, get out!" Or, less rough, you could just have negative mods for several types of social interaction in human society, though not by all.)

Yeah, that. "You want to all be elves? No problem... but you'll take a -25 to any roll concerning any social interaction of any kind, the base numbers for trading will be 1/2 value when selling and 1 1/2 value when buying (in addition to the -25 to trading rolls), and if any kind of crime at all is committed in the area, the local sheriffs will always, automatically be seeking you out as suspects first. That's the way it's going to be unless a clear majority of the party is humans, and you won't be entirely free of social penalties unless they're all humans. Still want to be all elves?"

 

Already have that. My system also allows for certain "expat" communities (for example, Wood and High Elves do exist in limited numbers in most human realms, as do halflings). I still use professions, and really don't plan to move to an alternate system.

And Fetterman isn't a good example from the Indian Wars by any means. Only a handful could be classed as better armed than the Sioux, and their training was lacking. They were also outnumbered by a pretty wide margin (by close to 10:1, depending on whose numbers you use for the Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho).

What drew admiration with the Comanche was typically their riding ability and skirmishing tactics (traditional functions of light cavalry).

[GrumpyOldFart]

They were also outnumbered by a pretty wide margin (by close to 10:1, depending on whose numbers you use for the Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho).

Precisely. They couldn't outfight them 1:1, and knew it... so they led him into an ambush. Fetterman didn't see 2,000 indians from the walls of the fort, and he assumed that what he could see was all there was. Further, he also assumed that his troops' experience fighting Confederate troops would translate fairly directly to fighting indians.

In short, superiority of weapons, organization and/or training was all trumped by superiority of tactics and thinking. Fetterman's men weren't killed by indians so much as they were killed by Fetterman's arrogance.

But if you want a better example, put those armored knights against unarmored Arabs led by Saladin. The result for the armored knights isn't any better.

[intothatdarkness]

They were also outnumbered by a pretty wide margin (by close to 10:1, depending on whose numbers you use for the Sioux, Cheyenne, and Arapaho).

Precisely. They couldn't outfight them 1:1, and knew it... so they led him into an ambush. Fetterman didn't see 2,000 indians from the walls of the fort, and he assumed that what he could see was all there was. Further, he also assumed that his troops' experience fighting Confederate troops would translate fairly directly to fighting indians.

In short, superiority of weapons, organization and/or training was all trumped by superiority of tactics and thinking. Fetterman's men weren't killed by indians so much as they were killed by Fetterman's arrogance.

But if you want a better example, put those armored knights against unarmored Arabs led by Saladin. The result for the armored knights isn't any better.

The knights, IMO, are a much better example. Fetterman's men were for the most part still using muzzle-loading Springfield rifle muskets (only a handful had Spencer carbines).

[markc]

 Yes IMHO I could not say for sure who would win. As I said I think who ever tried to fight the others war would lose. Some times the way to win is to not fight.
MDC

[RandalThor]

You definitely went into the more "harsh" realm there...

That's as may be... but I think I still stayed well within what you could reasonably expect a near universally human culture to act like, no? I mean sure, you wouldn't expect all human cultures everywhere to act like that, but finding out that such-and-such individual human culture acted like that would hardly be surprising, would it?

Oh, I agree whole heartedly, its just that the way you put it all back-to-back like that it really came across as: I HATE YOU! And sort of funny to me. (I'm weird like that......OK.... I'm weird in many ways, get off my back.  )

About the "Knight vs. Comanche" debate: I got no idea. I imagine the terrain, weather, fitness and health of the troops & horses, experience & intelligence of the leaders on either side, and many, many other factors would need to be taken into consideration before making that call. What I do know is that the Comanches were great light cavalry, while Knights were great heavy calvary (and the thugs of their time), so both would scare the bejesus out of me as they came barreling down!

[markc]

RandalThor;
 I agree if I saw them both I would have a tough decision to make......Which way to run!
MDC

[arakish]

About the "Knight vs. Comanche" debate: I got no idea. I imagine the terrain, weather, fitness and health of the troops & horses, experience & intelligence of the leaders on either side, and many, many other factors would need to be taken into consideration before making that call. What I do know is that the Comanches were great light cavalry, while Knights were great heavy calvary (and the thugs of their time), so both would scare the bejesus out of me as they came barreling down!

Thanks for listing some of the factors that I did not.  Just to list one possibility, the Comanche could stay out the knights' weapon ranges and pick them off through attrition using bows and arrows.  This could cause the knights to chase them around in circles wearing out their horses, making them easier to pick off.  Eventually, using this method, I can see the knights being the ones that would get massacred.

RandalThor;
 I agree if I saw them both I would have a tough decision to make......Which way to run!
MDC

That would probably be the best tactic.  Especially for an observer.

rmfr

[markc]

 If I were the Comanche, I would lead them off somewhere kill their horses and then pick the ones that survived falling off their horses.
MDC

[RandalThor]

And the Knight Commander, who is a great tactician, realizes the comanche's advantage of greater mobility and ranged attacks, maneuvers/tricks them into a tighter situation, so his boys can get close and do some real damage. And the Knights horses where known to have armor as well, so it might be a bit tough to just "take them out" of the picture.

You cannot create a fight between 2 or more people/groups and only give one side's tactics, then say they would win. (Yes, there are times when it is blatantly obvious, like, say a fully-armed and healthy Conan the Barbarian (going with the assumption he is real here folks) against Steven Hawkins who is chair-less, all set in a clear, flat arena with no cover....etc....but where is the fun in that?  )

[RandalThor]

But, back to the topic at hand. Making professions stand out doesn't seem to be a problem, they already do. Now, if you are talking about making the professions stand out race-by-race, a human of culture X vs culture Y, and/or dwarf fighter vs. elven fighter, I agree just using the professions and adolescent ranks don't quite do it*. I would delve into the Talents and Flaws system to assist there, and possibly alter some costs/professinoal bonuses.

Maybe do like BD&D did and give each race a "sphere" that they excel in (and others that they don't) and give them access to certain spell lists. Perhaps the spells of the list only work when they are using certain tools (i.e. weapons, armor, specific skill uses in specific environments, etc..).


*Though RM allows you to have different feeling human, fighters much better than most systems, and definitely better than D&D of any incarnation.

[yammahoper]

And the Knight Commander, who is a great tactician, realizes the comanche's advantage of greater mobility and ranged attacks, maneuvers/tricks them into a tighter situation, so his boys can get close and do some real damage. And the Knights horses where known to have armor as well, so it might be a bit tough to just "take them out" of the picture.

You cannot create a fight between 2 or more people/groups and only give one side's tactics, then say they would win. (Yes, there are times when it is blatantly obvious, like, say a fully-armed and healthy Conan the Barbarian (going with the assumption he is real here folks) against Steven Hawkins who is chair-less, all set in a clear, flat arena with no cover....etc....but where is the fun in that?  )

Steven Hawkin has a shotgun?  Goodbye Conan...

Anyways, another way to change the flavor of professions is to change up were their professions bonuses are applied.  In RMSS, each prof gets 50 points in catagory bonuses, so fighters from the land of the forest lords might have different catagory bonuses than the fighters from the realm of Arcana.

[rdanhenry]

For a light cavalry horse culture, RMSS/FRP gives you Occupation/Everyman/Restricted skills. Restrict armor skills, make Riding and Mounted Combat Occupational.

[RandalThor]

Steven Hawkin has a shotgun?  Goodbye Conan...

Y'know, after I posted it and was away from the computer for about half-an-hour I thought about that! D'oh! I would have added: "and broken hands/arms" if I had thought of it at the time to truly get the "no-duh" situation. Though, to be fair*, SH with a shotgun still isn't much of a threat to anyone considering his arms/hands do not work properly.

All of this has got me thinking that maybe skill costs and "professional" bonuses maybe shouldn't only come from the profession, but the culture. But that could cause a big problem, because how many cultures and the way they affect each possible profession are we able to stat up, without going crazy? It would mean an individual profession list for each culture/race. That is a lot of work, even if you don't have elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, etc... and just have the myriad of human cultures to draw from.


*If somewhat evil/mean.

[markc]

SH induces hart attack on Conan, Conan dies.
MDC

[rdanhenry]

SH induces hart attack on Conan, Conan dies.
MDC

Quantum magic. Although summoning angry deer seems an odd choice.