Topic: Magic AS Technology

[RandalThor]

Anyone see or hear about the show 17th Precinct? It is a cop show set in a world of magic, but never got off the ground. Check it out here: http://io9.com/5872010/

[munchy]

Is that similar to those Dresden Files a couple of years ago?
I really liked that setting, sad it was cancelled.

[RandalThor]

No, Dresden Files was (is for the books) a wizard in our world, though there is obviously magic, just the majority of the human race doesn't think so. In this non-show, the whole world believes and uses magic at all times. Plants and fire are power generators ("Power Plant"). The coroner was called a necromancer and summoned the spirit of the deceased in order to get information, though the spirits seemed to be uncooperative, and they did other things not shown.)

It is sort of how I would imagine a world would be like with the RM rules where everyone can learn spells & magic. (No, not everyone can be a mage, but it doesn't take a special talent to learn spells/spell-lists and power point development - it is just costly. But then, so is learning to be a doctor: the schools and instructors aren't cheap for higher learning, are they?)

[GrumpyOldFart]

I haven't watched it yet, but the premise sounds reminiscent of Harry Turtledove's The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_of_the_Toxic_Spell_Dump

[intothatdarkness]

It is sort of how I would imagine a world would be like with the RM rules where everyone can learn spells & magic. (No, not everyone can be a mage, but it doesn't take a special talent to learn spells/spell-lists and power point development - it is just costly. But then, so is learning to be a doctor: the schools and instructors aren't cheap for higher learning, are they?)

Sounds very much like what a Mythus campaign usually turned out being. Gary's rules had everyone and their dog casting some sort of spell and it was much more available than the standard RM stuff.

[providence13]

It is sort of how I would imagine a world would be like with the RM rules where everyone can learn spells & magic. (No, not everyone can be a mage, but it doesn't take a special talent to learn spells/spell-lists and power point development - it is just costly. But then, so is learning to be a doctor: the schools and instructors aren't cheap for higher learning, are they?)

Sounds very much like what a Mythus campaign usually turned out being. Gary's rules had everyone and their dog casting some sort of spell and it was much more available than the standard RM stuff.

Alas poor Mythus. I knew him...
Now that I think of it, Mythus reminds me of SW. Most people live in a medieval fantasy world but then there are places like Aegypt that have enough Heka to do near anything. They had tech reminiscent of Stargate.. at least that's how we played it. 
I did like the magic as a limiter of population growth, yet everyone knew something about magic.   

[RandalThor]

I did like the magic as a limiter of population growth, yet everyone knew something about magic.

Not sure how magic could be a limiter on population growth - unless we are talking about magic contraceptives. Otherwise, the ability to use magic would help you increase your population, I believe.

Now, the prevalence of monsters on the other hand...

[yammahoper]

Magic could be easy to use, even causing pleasure in its use, and thus greatly reducing the desire for sexual intercourse as magical intercourse is more satisfying.  Likewise, magic could be easy to use (think prosaic list usable by 95% of the population) and use of said magic causes infertility, not curable by magic for obvious reasons.

It could get even stranger: magical radiation is unknowingly causing a lowering of birth rates...inplants to use magic cause infertility, etc.  Lots of reasons and possible story archs.

[Marc R]

Or perhaps magic has mutational effects. . .

"Never marry a magician, their children come out with four eyes, or none at all."

[markc]

I have thought about the possible addicting effects of skill bonus spells and possible Flaws.
MDC

[yammahoper]

physically addictive and psychologically addictive are two very different disorders.  To express addiction to use of spells, be it haste or protections or whatever, I have called for a reaction roll by the PC, modified by the intensity of their psych addiction.  I only did this in a brief cyber type game for a single player, but it worked nicely (mostly because he enjoyed the flaw and had no problem roll playing the swings in behavior).

[markc]

physically addictive and psychologically addictive are two very different disorders.  To express addiction to use of spells, be it haste or protections or whatever, I have called for a reaction roll by the PC, modified by the intensity of their psych addiction.  I only did this in a brief cyber type game for a single player, but it worked nicely (mostly because he enjoyed the flaw and had no problem roll playing the swings in behavior).

 I can see that.
MDC

[RandalThor]

Aahhh. You guys are throwing all sorts of things in there that usually aren't - though there are some notable exceptions (like the Aes Sedai and Channeling). But, I can see how getting addicted to magic can hurt ones social life, much like anything that takes over so completely. But, one big difference is that magic would likely be considered one of those "necessary evils" as it can perform a big service, unlike things such as meth or crack. (Yeah, the users would say it performs a big service......)

I generally don't do any of that unless the campaign setting calls for it - like the afore mentioned Wheel of Time.

[providence13]

Likewise, magic could be easy to use (think prosaic list usable by 95% of the population) and use of said magic causes infertility, not curable by magic for obvious reasons.

It could get even stranger: magical radiation is lowering birth rates..

Otherwise you'd run out of room fast. It was still a cool idea and a good game system.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I've been trying to get HARP magic and the real world to mesh as closely as I could. The discussions we've had on the subject are here:

http://www.realroleplaying.com/rmsmf/index.php?board=565.0
(Feel free to comment)

And yes, there are a number of things you could add for flavor, but there are a few "uh ohs" already implicit in the fact that you're using magic in an earth-like setting where normal physics prevails in all other instances.

Physics supersedes biology. Biology trumps desire. Except where magic is concerned. 

The most obvious 2 I have found are:

1. Magic exists, and the law of conservation of energy works. This throws all kinds of dangers into a game all by itself, simply by virtue of the fact that the energy you used had to come from somewhere. A fireball cast with poor source energy control could freeze the caster solid.

2. Magic alters reality. The definition of psychosis is "a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a loss of contact with reality". This doesn't mean all spell casters are mad, but it does mean they are more at risk, because refusing the existing reality and creating their own is their stock in trade.

[Marc R]

I thought it germane to this topic, the comment I made re: Option 9.1 "Item casting is always instant"

IMO the logic built into "items cast as instants" is more akin to magic as tech, where the user isn't casting, they are pointing and using. . .but for that logic to fit, there would need to be a malfunction table rather than spell failure on the user for that kind of item. Not wanting to write up a table like that, I stopped using that option in favor of 9.1.

If magic is tech, then using magic needs to be more like armor or weapon bonuses, where the user needs no magical skill, and is not casting, just using the item, the item does the casting, and failure would need a "Magic Item Malfunction" table.

As is, magic items are like foci, but the user is still casting the spell from it via atunement and subject to spell failure if it goes belly up. . .if you have a magic gun which has X charges and fires a shock bolt out the barrel every time you pull the trigger. . .and where a misfire causes the "gun" to malfunction, rather than the user to go into spell failure, you have crossed over to magic as tech.

[yammahoper]

I thought it germane to this topic, the comment I made re: Option 9.1 "Item casting is always instant"

IMO the logic built into "items cast as instants" is more akin to magic as tech, where the user isn't casting, they are pointing and using. . .but for that logic to fit, there would need to be a malfunction table rather than spell failure on the user for that kind of item. Not wanting to write up a table like that, I stopped using that option in favor of 9.1.

If magic is tech, then using magic needs to be more like armor or weapon bonuses, where the user needs no magical skill, and is not casting, just using the item, the item does the casting, and failure would need a "Magic Item Malfunction" table.

As is, magic items are like foci, but the user is still casting the spell from it via atunement and subject to spell failure if it goes belly up. . .if you have a magic gun which has X charges and fires a shock bolt out the barrel every time you pull the trigger. . .and where a misfire causes the "gun" to malfunction, rather than the user to go into spell failure, you have crossed over to magic as tech.

What if the item is keyed or has a command word to use.  Then pressing a stud, pulling a trigger or saying BANG might make it function with no sort of attunement required.  Now imagine ALL magic items work this way and always have.

[Marc R]

magic as tech. . .

[RandalThor]

I thought it germane to this topic, the comment I made re: Option 9.1 "Item casting is always instant"

IMO the logic built into "items cast as instants" is more akin to magic as tech, where the user isn't casting, they are pointing and using. . .but for that logic to fit, there would need to be a malfunction table rather than spell failure on the user for that kind of item. Not wanting to write up a table like that, I stopped using that option in favor of 9.1.

If magic is tech, then using magic needs to be more like armor or weapon bonuses, where the user needs no magical skill, and is not casting, just using the item, the item does the casting, and failure would need a "Magic Item Malfunction" table.

As is, magic items are like foci, but the user is still casting the spell from it via atunement and subject to spell failure if it goes belly up. . .if you have a magic gun which has X charges and fires a shock bolt out the barrel every time you pull the trigger. . .and where a misfire causes the "gun" to malfunction, rather than the user to go into spell failure, you have crossed over to magic as tech.

Which is a good way of instituting the idea. Like the fax/internet/downloader-thingy from the show that started this thread, 17th Precinct, where anyone could stick their hand in it, "search" for the information, and either receive it mentally or get a blank piece of paper and get the info put on it for a hard copy. But, there could be a problem instituting such items in a wide spread manner if they still take a long time, lots of energy, and possibly even life-experience (i.e. XP) to manufacture. The reason we all use computers is because someone doesn't have to give up a 3 year stretch of experience, $5G in materials, and the next 6-months locked away in their lab in order to make them. If/when magic items can be mass produced and used by anyone in a setting, that setting has just been altered forever.

[Marc R]

True, and mass production of passive items like weapons and armor would do so. . .but attunement crosses it over to some mystical act of use with active items, even mass production wouldn't make them technology like the passive items.

At best, it's similar to the logic HARP SF uses for tech. . .at experimental stage, it's a crazy device only the inventor can get to work, bulky, fragile and temperamental.

Latter stages get the item more user friendly, through prototypes to standard models to advanced or highly advanced mature versions.

The stage of current, widespread use is where you only need to know how to use the gun/computer/widget, you don't need to understand how it works, how to get it to run, keep running, and fix or modify it to get it running. . .you just need to know "Point it at the target and shoot, after 8 shots, you need to re-load".

Active Magic items in RM work more like experimental or prototype tech, where only savants familiar with the principles can use them. . .to get magic to tech, you need to push it over that line to where it's a mature, normal thing to use them, where you can touch the fire rod to the kindling and say "Alight!" and it lights the fire. . .no need to study attunement or attune to the item, just buy a fire rod at the store, take it home and use it.