Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Spectre771 on October 18, 2016, 02:06:28 PM
-
I've been curious about this for a while and decided to finally ask:
When making a new PC (Spell user, semi-spell user, non-spell user), what is your favorite weapon at creation time and why?
Most of my players go plain old Board and Sword. Some will get fancy and take Falchion. My daughter loves using the Steel Whip, which is really cool and I have a couple of characters that carry it as a secondary or tertiary weapon.
I love the Morning Star and Flail. Some players don't like the higher fumble range, but "go big or go home!" and I liked to take weapons that everyone else didn't already have. It's RM! Get those crits early and get 'em often folks. Step right up!
As the years went on and the Companions came out, I ended up falling in love with the Tebuje and that's solely for the Rip/Tear Critical table ;D And, when opponents face the weapon, they have to make a fear roll or fight at a negative, and that's all non-magical. Apparently the NPC's read the Rip/Tear Crit table too! :o
However, think my favorite is the Estock for the sheer versatility of it. It has three types of attack; 1H, 2H, and Mounted! The attack modifiers are on the attack table. It's primarily a thrusting weapon, but it works so well. You don't need to carry 3 weapons, and more importantly, you don't have to worry about carrying a lance if you want to attack from horseback. The "lance" comes with you into battle. Getting hammered in 2H mode? Use it 1H and grab a shield!
-
Mine is the plain old spear.
You get the 1H/2H versatility, it is similar to just about everything from quarterstaff to lance and with its long reach you can fight from behind big butch fighters and not get hurt. I am playing a Lay Healer and have a terrible OB. Given the bonus to initiative I am frequently the first to strike.
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
I don't know, lowering your spear and nudging your horse into a canter has a pretty good feel to it.
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
I don't know, lowering your spear and nudging your horse into a canter has a pretty good feel to it.
Still not a sword. :P
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
I don't know, lowering your spear and nudging your horse into a canter has a pretty good feel to it.
Still not a sword. :P
But I can make lewd jokes in the tavern about weapon size.
-
I usually go sword and board, but am seriously thinking of going spear and board for the versatility. Having a weapon that is even better mounted than it is on foot is pretty appealing, as well as one that can be braced to discourage charges. I also like the ability to throw my weapon if I can't reach my opponent in time.
-
I usually go sword and board, but am seriously thinking of going spear and board for the versatility. Having a weapon that is even better mounted than it is on foot is pretty appealing, as well as one that can be braced to discourage charges. I also like the ability to throw my weapon if I can't reach my opponent in time.
If you find yourself weapon-less and alone on a beach spear is similar to two handed club if you can find some driftwood. In a forest spear is similar to quarterstaff. There is a lot less metal in a spear than in a sword.
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
I don't know, lowering your spear and nudging your horse into a canter has a pretty good feel to it.
Still not a sword. :P
But I can make lewd jokes in the tavern about weapon size.
It is more about the skill at using it than the size. ;)
-
Nothing has the same vibe as a good sword.
I don't know, lowering your spear and nudging your horse into a canter has a pretty good feel to it.
To Thot:
Estoc. ;D
To PeterR:
Estoc. 8)
Back to Thot:
(see above)
Back to PeterR:
(See also wik wik) LOL
It can be used as a spear and as a mounted spear. Maybe not "Lance" statistics, RM2 let's you use it mounted. Don't know if I can post outside links, but there is some info on Wiki. "edgeless sword" good for poking through armour.
You guys make great points and RM2 created a beauty of a weapon. I'll have to look up some stats from the attack table to post here.
If you find yourself weapon-less and alone on a beach spear is similar to two handed club if you can find some driftwood. In a forest spear is similar to quarterstaff. There is a lot less metal in a spear than in a sword.
Yes, definitely. I always add a 3rd or 4th weapon skill that uses plain old club, armoured fist, or brawling. It's easy to break the leg off a chair to club someone with than it is to break off a piece of steel, sharpen, and attack your foe with in a tavern. There's something to be said for the good old club skill.
-
It all depends on my character concept. I've played a farmer turned bashkar who had a deep-seated hatred of mounted warriors. His weapon of choice? Halberd, with javelins as secondary. For my troubled elven duelist it had to be rapier and main gauche (picture Johnny Ringo from Tombstone and you get close to this guy). Character for me always drives weapon.
-
For my troubled elven duelist it had to be rapier and main gauche (picture Johnny Ringo from Tombstone and you get close to this guy).
Age quod agis!
I loved that movie.
-
For spell users I love the spear because it offers the option to attack from the 2nd line. For semi spell users or non-spell users I like to use another weapon with every new character and have no weapon I prefer the most. I try to avoid weapons with a fumble >5 and there are some weapons, like dagger or club, that do so little damage that I never select them as primary weapon.
-
I agree that character concept drives the weapon choice but for most of the professions (pure, semi and hybrids) they can only afford a single weapon skill. The three most flexible weapons are spear, shortsword and hand axe. The last two have plenty of similar weapons, have a ranged option, are concealible and can be used in two weapon combo.
With the shortsword you can do that Crocodile Dundee thing "call that a knife?"
-
I had a spell user wielding a Steel Spiked Chain Whip. Nice weapon, but easily tanglable. You might could get one good shot, then next turn foe can catch it, wind it around gauntlet...
Overall, I'd say the Long Sword or Broad Rapier.
rmfr
-
For spell users I love the spear because it offers the option to attack from the 2nd line. [...]
Isn't a ranged weapon a more natural choice for a spell user?
-
For spell users I love the spear because it offers the option to attack from the 2nd line. [...]
Isn't a ranged weapon a more natural choice for a spell user?
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
-
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
- Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
- Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
-
I don't make PCs. :p
OTOH, I like polearms and double-weapons so I like to give my NPCs such weapons. To note, currently I have a NPC for each of these: gau lung dai chah (九龍大叉), shuāngshǒudài (双手带), gum gsin chian (金錢鏟), sodegarami (袖搦), hùntiānlù (混天戮), sān jiān liǎng rèn dāo (三尖两刃刀), chiyiyueyadang (歯翼月牙鎲), fāng biàn chǎn (方便鏟), jiǚ chǐ dīng pá (九齒釘耙), hǔchā (虎叉), gōu lián qiāng (钩镰枪), and xīzhàng (錫杖), spade, hoe, for the polearms; lùjiǎodāo (鹿角刀), jiu zi gou (九歯双鈎), rìyuè qiang dāo (日月槍刀), feng huo lun (風火輪), shuang gou (護手双钩), jī dāo lián (鷄刀鐮), húdié shuāng dāo (蝴蝶雙刀), gōngtiānshū (宮天梳), shuāng shǒujǐ (双手戟), yuanyangfu (鴛鴦斧), shuāngtóuqīang (雙頭槍) used in pair of course, pàn guān bǐ (判官筆), fung lui seung bat (風雷雙鈸), emeici (峨嵋), twin rings, for the double-weapons; or stuff such as the kyoketsu-shogei (距跋渉毛), kusarigama (鎖鎌), zǐ mǔ chuí (子母锤), jiànbian (剣鞭) that are double-weapons but not with the same weapon in both extremities; or weapons such as the qiánkūn rìyuè dāo (乾坤日月刀; would that could as a twin weapon?).
For spell users, I tend to go for inconspicuous weapons: some of the above such as the spade, hoe, twin rings, emeici, pàn guān bǐ or fung lui seung bat, but also a parasol, umbrella, wooden stool or oar.
-
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
- Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
- Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
In 30+ years my experience has been that when the spell caster draws a weapon it is normally to parry with waiting for help to arrive. It sounds like your game is somewhat different.
In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying.
-
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
- Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
- Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
In 30+ years my experience has been that when the spell caster draws a weapon it is normally to parry with waiting for help to arrive. It sounds like your game is somewhat different.
My games tend to be more like yours Peter: casters usually try to have a weapon like a staff for when they get caught in melee and need something to parry with. With the new RMU rules for power points, I imagine casters will almost always have some spells they can use at a distance; where they lack is in melee, which is why I find they need a melee weapon. Running out of power points is of course a much greater concern in RM2 though. How does RMC do it? How many power points is a first level character likely to have?
-
My favorite is the War Mattock. If the crit doesn't put a foe down, the hits will. Especially if the wielder is frenzied or is using a X2 concussion enchantment or ability.
-
[...]
In my experience if a spellcaster is resorting to using weapons then it will be in hand to hand rather than ranged.
- Magic points used up or remaining magic points needed for healing the party or similar support functions - stay in second line and use your higher dexterity over your low strength. Bow or crossbow seems like a natural choice.
- Unwittingly caught in melee: Run!
In 30+ years my experience has been that when the spell caster draws a weapon it is normally to parry with waiting for help to arrive. It sounds like your game is somewhat different.
My games tend to be more like yours Peter: casters usually try to have a weapon like a staff for when they get caught in melee and need something to parry with. With the new RMU rules for power points, I imagine casters will almost always have some spells they can use at a distance; where they lack is in melee, which is why I find they need a melee weapon. Running out of power points is of course a much greater concern in RM2 though. How does RMC do it? How many power points is a first level character likely to have?
RMC is the same as RM2 in this instance. I have a first level Lay Healer and he has the a total of 5. I rolled a straight 100 PR which gave me 3. A background option gave me an additional +1 PP per level and the GM is using an optional rule that gives me an additional 1 per level. I think that is a lot of power points under the RM2/RMC rules. The GM is using RMC with many of the RM2 companions so our party is a Celtic Mage complete with kilt sporan and claymor, a rather upperclass bard using a broadsword, a noble warrior also using sword and board and me an impoverished lay healer using a spear. Right now there is not a ranged weapon in the party and we are all 1st level so I doubt we have a single ranged spell either.
My combat tactic is to fight from the second rank, I have a decent adrenal move strength and speed skills so I have the choice of +10OB and x2 damage or two attacks. My total skill in those is +46 so nearly 50/50 as to whether I will get it or not. My natural OB is +18, making me less than dangerous. I suspect that cowering with a hand up and shouting "Don't hurt me I'm a healer!" may be my best tactic in combat.
-
Definitely stick with the spear then!
-
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."
What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.
-
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."
What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.
When I play a Ranger, Rogue, or other like profession, I tend to use bows as their primary weapon backed up with a sword. Also, my fighters tend to learn bows as a 2ndary weapon. Bows also come in handy when hunting, thus my arms based character almost always have a bow or crossbow.
rmfr
-
Peter R Said: "In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying."
What is it that you and our players find dissatisfying about Bows? I know I have very few players use them, but I tend to use them a lot against the players effectively. Especially to slow them down and delay them from engaging the enemy.
The problem with bows are the puncture criticals. When you get up towards the better D & E criticals where a slash or krush do major damage the punctures much less lenient. In other criticals where the wound may be fatal with the puncture the foe only appears stunned (and may die in several rounds but the players do not know that) with a slash the fow may have lost an arm and be spouting blood.
Here is a roll of 91-95 E Slash.
Sever foe's spine. +20 hits. Foe collapses in a second, and is paralyzed from the neck down permanently.
Here is a roll of 91-95 E Puncture.
Sever artery in foe's arm. Foe is stunned for 12 rnds and then dies.
Obviously I have chosen an extreme example but the puncture criticals are less evocative and you could say that the death result is actually worse than paralysis especially if the victim is a spell caster who could in theory still cast spells even when paralysed but all the archer sees is the arrow hit the target in the arm, there is a lot of blood and the impact has left him rather dazed. The archer doesn't know it is fatal or even how long they are stunned for. Very few fights are going to last 12 rnds so unless this person makes his escape someone else is going to engage him and kill him again.
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
-
[...]
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
But in the case of a spellcaster whose magic points are low, puncture criticals are a lot better than doing either nothing or standing in the first line with a melee weapon.
-
[...]
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
But in the case of a spellcaster whose magic points are low, puncture criticals are a lot better than doing either nothing or standing in the first line with a melee weapon.
Maybe, maybe not. It just never happens in our games. If they are trying to fire every round then the minuses mean they need an open ended to hit anything, even if they didn't before. If they take the time to reload then they spend half their time inactive. With a weapon you can use every round you can at least parry, if someone else stuns the person attacking you then you have a chance.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with bows or spell casters using bows. I am just saying that in my game and in those I play bows are generally felt to be dissapointing.
We finished a high level campaign not too long ago. We started with pregen characters and the ranger had long bow as his primary weapon. I was using two weapon combo and addrenal move speed and thrown shortswords. The ranger had a massive range compared to a short sword but as he was the only bow user in the party the plan was always to get up close before starting the attack. Therefore the range was never particularly useful. Once they were in range I had kill rate 4 times that of the ranger and I often killed his bleeding targets. That even took into account the time required to recover my weapons. Our fighter was using a pair of laen broadswords, the mage was keen on death clouds, I gave covering fire and the ranger just sort of took 'ineffectual' pot shots. I ended up about 5 levels higher than the ranger because his kill rate was so poor. That was not entirely down to the bow, I did a lot of stalking and ambush so got lots of individual kills and despite being a thief I had learned 5 spell lists by the end of the game and was the primary healer in the group with a combination of spells, items and decent herb lore. The point of the story is that, that high level game reinforced the idea that bows were just not a good weapon.
If they work for you then great, that was just our experience.
-
In my game and the games I have played in no one uses bows. In RMC they are very dissatisfying.
I can see your point, and it's probably more evident with the crossbows given the amount of time to reload. A lot of my players use bows as "one and done" then switch to melee, but they always get some ranks in a ranged weapon. (Except for Duelist class from RM2. I believe they shun ranged weapons as 'dishonorable combat.') Unless the players have good cover and the enemy has a good distance to cover, then maybe they'll get 2-3 shots before switching, but it doesn't prevent me from investing in ranged as a 2nd or 3rd weapon slot. (I don't make many spell casters :) ) I still love the Heavy CB and almost always take it. If I'm playing a PC with a bit less "militaristic" bent and more of a "nature/free spirit" archetype, I'll take Composite bow. I love the bonuses on the Comp Bow.
When I've made a spell caster, I've chosen staff or club as a weapon rationalizing that I can beat someone with my magic staff or my magic wand once I've run out of PP.
As a segue, I make sure all of my PC's have developed at least Rank 2 in Martial Arts or Wrestling. If my magic wand can't be used to beat someone, then at least I can throw a punch or throw my opponent. LOL There's something to be said for being scrappy and wiry. A decent strike/sweep/throw could cause that oh-so-desperately-needed stun crit on my opponent so I can run away.
-
My players have found bows to be useful, but I agree that their criticals lack a little compared to Crush and Slash, at least in this respect: puncture crits tend to do more bleeding, but combats are over before that bleeding usually can make any difference. A bleed of 1 or even 2 hits per round is meaningless 98% of the time, but an extra 5 hits might make a difference.
As far as melee vs. ranged goes, melee has been more useful to my casters because they already tend to have things they can do at range. I recently made a Mentalist that used spells at a distance and a Glaive up close to finish foes off. It was pretty fun to play.
-
Firstly, This reasoning seams contradictory to your statements about Favorite weapons, as you list the spear amoung your favorite weapon choices, Which uses Puncture criticals as well.
Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.
Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.
Thirdly, if your ignoring Bows and Crossbows solely on the basis of what are apparently lesser criticals? You are losing several major advantage to all fights in history. Ones that are the reason they were used.
#1 you can hit your target from range with less risk to yourself.
#2 you can do it from Cover and concealment both for additional safety and to ambush your foe.
#3 you can, in most situations, get off several shots before the melee enemy reaches you.
#4 You can keep wary foes pinned down in cover preventing or slowing them down from reaching you.
And from a Game rules point of view:
#5 Unless the Enemy has a shield, it is much harder to defend against an arrow/Missile.
Ignoring such things surely does make bows appear less. But when considered, bows can rule an encounter as easily as a Mage with spells.
-
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
An enemy that is stunned for 12 rounds does not need to be "FInished off". He is Effectively out of Combat and will die at the end of those 12 rounds. Unless he has some Serious Stunned Maneuvering bonuses.
12 rounds of stun is effectively an absurd maneuver on the Basic table, worse if you use the expanded Maneuver tables, to try to over come. Plus you have the -10 per round of accumulated stun added to the difficulty of that roll.
Even at 5 rounds of stun, you have to roll on the extremely Hard table with an additional -50 for rounds of stun accrued.
and one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, You use the bow until the Enemy gets close, then you switch to a melee weapon. Ignoring a missile option basically looses you a bunch of actions until melee is engaged.
-
Firstly, This reasoning seams contradictory to your statements about Favorite weapons, as you list the spear amoung your favorite weapon choices, Which uses Puncture criticals as well.
Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.
Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.
Thirdly, if your ignoring Bows and Crossbows solely on the basis of what are apparently lesser criticals? You are losing several major advantage to all fights in history. Ones that are the reason they were used.
#1 you can hit your target from range with less risk to yourself.
#2 you can do it from Cover and concealment both for additional safety and to ambush your foe.
#3 you can, in most situations, get off several shots before the melee enemy reaches you.
#4 You can keep wary foes pinned down in cover preventing or slowing them down from reaching you.
And from a Game rules point of view:
#5 Unless the Enemy has a shield, it is much harder to defend against an arrow/Missile.
Ignoring such things surely does make bows appear less. But when considered, bows can rule an encounter as easily as a Mage with spells.
First: There is no contradiction, the topic said favourite not the best and I like spears. I rarely play out and out fighters so where the percieved problem with puncture criticals is most pronounced in teh higher numbers in the D&E criticals I am mostly hitting in the lower reaches of the table where spears do a mix of slashes and punctures and even the odd krush critical.
Second: you are probably right about getting the arrow or bolt out.
Third:In mass battles I am sure bows are fine, against foes with low morale again they are fine, any wound is probably enough to get them to leave the battle field. When you are in closer quarters such as a prison break, storming a watch tower, searching the underdark and the like the short lines of site negate some or all of the advantages of the bow. It is a situation by situation decision.
I like the spear, if I am fighting skeletons I can use it as a quarterstaff and break bones, arrows or indeed spears in that situation are less useful. I can use it in a cavalry charge even if I am more of a percieved threat than a real one. With my spear I feel I can be an active member of any and every combat. If the worst came to the worst I could even throw the thing!
-
That idea of someone else has to finish off the archers targets leaves the archer feeling like they were pretty useless compared to the other members of the party.
An enemy that is stunned for 12 rounds does not need to be "FInished off". He is Effectively out of Combat and will die at the end of those 12 rounds. Unless he has some Serious Stunned Maneuvering bonuses.
12 rounds of stun is effectively an absurd maneuver on the Basic table, worse if you use the expanded Maneuver tables, to try to over come. Plus you have the -10 per round of accumulated stun added to the difficulty of that roll.
Even at 5 rounds of stun, you have to roll on the extremely Hard table with an additional -50 for rounds of stun accrued.
and one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, You use the bow until the Enemy gets close, then you switch to a melee weapon. Ignoring a missile option basically looses you a bunch of actions until melee is engaged.
OK, only the GM knows he is stunned for 12 rounds. It could be one round it could be more. A stunned opponent can still shout for help, stagger to a gong and hit it or make an open ended stunned maneuver roll and beat me senseless.
Your last point is dependent on the enemy not being spotted until close up.
At no point have I said bows are bad. I only said that in our games bows were percieved as being disappointing.
-
Secondly, Now there is something missing from the Rolemaster Rules for Puncturing weapons, especially for Arrows and Bolts, and that is the fact that they "embed" themselves into the target, when they hit, and need to be removed. Midevil removal methods were rather brutal, especially if the Arrow or bolt had a 'Head' on it rather than just a Sharpened point.
Now I realize this isn't rules as Written, but I use house rules for Embedded Arrows and Bolts and difficulties for removing them and causing more damage. RM needs rules like this. For Melee Puncture weapons, I assume the removal is part of the damage inflicted.
OMG! That's something that I've never even considered. In all the years of gaming, the hours upon hours of playing RM and all other game systems; the arrows can be imbedded in the target!
I'm sure most of you are saying "Duh, no crap." I don't know why I've never thought of this. Maybe in my mind's eye, the arrows hit and fell out. Or maybe passed through. Or maybe broke off. Or the target just removed them as a matter of course before the next round. Whatever the case, I just never (and none of the GM's I can recall) accounted for "remove the arrow in battle." I know at the end of combat, we've cleaned up, plucked arrows, tended to wounds, but what is the reality to fighting with the arrow in the body? More damage certainly, aggravating the bleeding possibly. It could act as a plug of sorts. When we are on a rescue scene, we never remove the imbedded object. That's the job of the ER doctors to do in the hospital not the first responders on scene. That object could be keeping an artery sealed off and removing it could cause the patient to bleed out.
What are the house rules you use for imbedded arrows/quarrels? I think we always just assumed that removing the arrow was part of the total damage received and part of the crit damage. Even if the target doesn't receive a crit, it could be stuck in the body, you know.... just a flesh wound.
-
What is wrong with the Long Kynac? a Preferred weapon for my Nightblade.
-
What is wrong with the Long Kynac? a Preferred weapon for my Nightblade.
Isn't "long kynac" a specifically named item from C&T 1 or RMC1? I saw that as a treasure to be earned, not something a player could start the game with. There are plenty of weapons in C&T I would love to have, one of them acts like a light saber when activated 8)
In that case, my favorite weapon is Shield Slayer (Battle Axe). Level 50 Destroy shield/armour on hit. My Cavalier found it in a long, long campaign that lasted 2 semesters when I was in college. What a blast that is to play with!
-
The long kynac is a weapon in arms law. That and the kynac, both use the rapier table.
-
The long kynac is treated as a +15 rapier, and throwable to boot if I remember correctly. It doesn't make sense to let a player start with one unless you would also let them start with a +15 rapier.
-
It is non magic, it is listed in Arms Law as a weapon. Would you allow a player to pick a Longsword over a Broadsword? How about a Pilum over a spear? Perhaps a No-Dachi over a Two-Handed Sword? Maybe they are a fishing folk and they want a Trident instead of a spear? Perhaps they wish to use a Shuriken? or a Cudgel? All of those have a +5 to +10 bonus are they any different? The character pays the higher cost and they take the different weapon.
-
It is non magic, it is listed in Arms Law as a weapon. Would you allow a player to pick a Longsword over a Broadsword? How about a Pilum over a spear? Perhaps a No-Dachi over a Two-Handed Sword? Maybe they are a fishing folk and they want a Trident instead of a spear? Perhaps they wish to use a Shuriken? or a Cudgel? All of those have a +5 to +10 bonus are they any different? The character pays the higher cost and they take the different weapon.
I did allow a player to take one, as Mordrig points out, it is a non magical weapon amongst many alternative weapons listing in Arms Law. They are also as rare as hens teeth and fairly early on all the characters were captured at the end of a combat that went against them and had their weapons and armour stolen. Finding another Long Kynac was extremely difficult. Eventually when the party reached a large city one could be found but for months the character was at half skill. As other members of the party upgraded with kit with either superior quality or magic weapons the Kynac wielder never once found an improved kynac. Not because of any bias from me it was just one never came up in the dice rolls.
With the Kynac and Long Kynac that is the balancing factor that you can take the risk of training in an extremely rare weapon and suffer the consequences if it is lost, broken or stolen. With the Pilum, yes it is superior but it is also a single use weapon, it is designed to break on impact. The Longsword vs Broadsword the longsword only had bonuses against certain ATs and penalties verses others. The Trident has 50% greater range penalties and is significantly shorter, 8' vs 10' so whether the GM would allow the trident to fight from the second row is less certain. The dagger vs Shuriken the dagger has a fumble range of 1-1 the shuriken has a fumble rage of 1-5. Each has a balancing factor. The No Dachi and Katana are slightly different in that they are cultural weapons and if you are playing in a Japanese setting then most combatants would be using weapons from the same culture so there is no advantage lost or gained if both sides are getting the same advantages. If the weapons are taken out of their culture then there is a temporary advantage until like the kynac above it is lost or broken and replacements cannot be found.
-
In Kulthea, the kynac (and long kynac) are also cultural weapons "limited to the Dùranaki of Tanara and a few obscure cults scattered across Kulthea."
...but then, pretty much *all* weapons are cultural weapons, as you may be challenged to find a proper _broadsword_ outside of European countries, for instance.
-
The long kynac is treated as a +15 rapier, and throwable to boot if I remember correctly. It doesn't make sense to let a player start with one unless you would also let them start with a +15 rapier.
Sounds like a very cool weapon. I see no reason to not let a player take it, but it seems a little strong for a level 1 PC to start with. The only way players started with +5, +10, +15 bonus items were from rolls on the Background Options tables. There must be a reason that none of my players have ever taken it. I'll take a look at it tonight. If it is a cultural weapon (as mentioned in another post) that could be why, but I don't think I've ever restricted weapons based on cultural locations and I've had players choose rapier as their primary weapon too.
It is non magic, it is listed in Arms Law as a weapon. Would you allow a player to pick a Longsword over a Broadsword? How about a Pilum over a spear? Perhaps a No-Dachi over a Two-Handed Sword? Maybe they are a fishing folk and they want a Trident instead of a spear? Perhaps they wish to use a Shuriken? or a Cudgel? All of those have a +5 to +10 bonus are they any different? The character pays the higher cost and they take the different weapon.
I did allow a player to take one, as Mordrig points out, it is a non magical weapon amongst many alternative weapons listing in Arms Law. They are also as rare as hens teeth and fairly early on all the characters were captured at the end of a combat that went against them and had their weapons and armour stolen. Finding another Long Kynac was extremely difficult. Eventually when the party reached a large city one could be found but for months the character was at half skill. As other members of the party upgraded with kit with either superior quality or magic weapons the Kynac wielder never once found an improved kynac. Not because of any bias from me it was just one never came up in the dice rolls.
Very interesting points. A lot of our PCs didn't put much stock into their starting weapons as the goal was to find better quality/magical items via adventuring. Sounds like the kynac is just an extremely rare, toothed-bird and it does sound like finding an improved version of one is very difficult. Not many players would refuse a really nice magically improved weapon just to stick with their rare, non-magical kynac.
However, the topic of the thread is a player's favorite weapon and this sounds like it's a very cool weapon to have.
-
The character in question is now level 10, and still has never replaced it, because it is extremely rare and he can't find a magic one (I think there are 3 in the books). Additionally, he did lose it, and was forced to fight with a stolen Scimitar, and then a falchion for a long while. Finally he recovered it, but it was nasty for a long time.
-
I have a bit of a bias against fantasy weapons. Real melee weapons were designed and refined over centuries of combat and warfare. They are very good at what they are used for, within the limits of metallurgy and crafting capabilities of their period. A trade-off like the longsword, where you get a bonus against some armor types but a penalty against others, reflects design optimized for a certain type of combat, and is perfectly reasonable. But when you give a bonus against all armor types, you have to ask how that is possible. We tend to treat katanas as superior to broadswords but it's not really that the shape of the katana is so superior, the main advantage of the katana is that the metallurgy is better. It makes more sense to stat the weapons a bit more similarly, but then specify that katanas are normally made from high steel II, with the inherent bonus, and price them accordingly. That will scale better once you get to even better materials (e.g. if you make your katana out of mithril it should raise the bonus from +10 to +30 rather than adding an additional +30 on top of the bonuses it already gets for the high steel it's not made of).
So, why is a long kynac better? It could be that its makers have figured out a way to improve the shape of the weapon in a way that vastly improves its use, but then there's no reason why every culture exposed to this amazing development wouldn't have copied it, and it assumes that there is something universally inferior about the design of a rapier, which seems questionable. Or, there is something vastly improved about the metallurgy and crafting techniques that go into it, in which case it should be treated as being of superior materials (e.g. enchanted steel II or white alloy) which will give it a price appropriate for its value, a reason why other cultures can't copy it, and more realistic scaling if you try to use other materials to make one.
-
I have a bit of a bias against fantasy weapons.
+1, and an excellent explanation.
-
I appreciate the argument, I understand where you are coming from. In fact, I agree to a point. This character uses the Kynac, he pays for it in that he cannot find a magic weapon. He picked up a magic longsword, but once he recovered his Kynac the longsword was given away to a loyal retainer. Culturally, that is his weapon, he will use other weapons, but a Kynac is his preference.
-
In Kulthea, the kynac (and long kynac) are also cultural weapons "limited to the Dùranaki of Tanara and a few obscure cults scattered across Kulthea."
...but then, pretty much *all* weapons are cultural weapons, as you may be challenged to find a proper _broadsword_ outside of European countries, for instance.
True but the stereotypical fantasy setting is very Eurocentric so I assumed that to be the lowest common denominator for weaponry.
I didn't actually realise that they came from Shadow World as I don't run that setting. The character in my example was actually in Middle Earth. The weapon just ended up in the game as we saw it in Arms Law.
-
So, why is a long kynac better?
If you go by its Kulthea description, it's because "it's only effective when constructed along very specific design parameters, and when employed by combatants who have been specially trained in their use."
It could be that its makers have figured out a way to improve the shape of the weapon in a way that vastly improves its use, but then there's no reason why every culture exposed to this amazing development wouldn't have copied it, ...
Cost, difficulty to forge? People usually assume that if a weapon is superior, everyone would just have one and it would become widespread, which is absolutely wrong. One of the main factor that makes it widely adopted is its price and easiness to create and repair. The Ch&CL law does have its price so, really, a long kynac may just be as expensive as a +15 rapier and be treated as such, being better because always made of superior alloy and by more expert blacksmiths (because of its "very specific design parameters") so not "every culture exposed to this amazing development" copied it because they could do the same (a +15 rapier) without having to find out what these "very specific design parameters" are.
In other words, mayhap the process to forge a long kynac is so complex and expensive, it's just not worth it, but for a few people for whom it has a cultural meaning (the Dùranaki) or a religious one (a few obscure cults).
-
I have a bit of a bias against fantasy weapons....
Well put. Excellent example.
-
I have put this as more of an Elven Cultural weapon in my campaigns. Being more rare to others but common to the Elven heritage. I would allow background exceptions for the weapon as long as it was explained on how attained and trained.
-
I tend to use cultural weapons as well, but I also have players roll for origin which restricts some of them. In other cases possession of a cultural weapon by someone not of that culture is considered a deadly insult. That's led to some interesting situations...