Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: TheFailedSave on January 31, 2016, 07:08:00 AM
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Hello everyone,
I played HARP once years ago and I really liked it except I didn't much like the fancy critical charts. An acquaintance told me that the HARP book had an optional rule called Life Points that eliminated the need for the tables. So, I purchased the book planning to run it for my group. Unfortunately, I discovered that those rules are no longer in the book via a post here about different printings. This has left me a bit frustrated. Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction where I could find those rules?
Thank you.
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Hmm I will have to look into that and get back.
IMHO the HARP tables look impressive and promise a one roll resolution but they end up repetitive and time consuming. But I do love the rest of the system. From experience it is possible to strip out the damage mechanic and leave the rest in. I will consult my books when I get home.
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Hello everyone,
I played HARP once years ago and I really liked it except I didn't much like the fancy critical charts. An acquaintance told me that the HARP book had an optional rule called Life Points that eliminated the need for the tables. So, I purchased the book planning to run it for my group. Unfortunately, I discovered that those rules are no longer in the book via a post here about different printings. This has left me a bit frustrated. Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction where I could find those rules?
Thank you.
The Life Points option was removed when HARP Fantasy was revised to its enhanced version. You are the first person who has requested them.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Hmm I will have to look into that and get back.
IMHO the HARP tables look impressive and promise a one roll resolution but they end up repetitive and time consuming. But I do love the rest of the system. From experience it is possible to strip out the damage mechanic and leave the rest in. I will consult my books when I get home.
The repetition is reduced if you use HARP Martial Law's location-specific criticals. At some point, we will find someone who can stay sane long enough to generate something analogous to the diversity of critical results available in Rolemaster's Arms Law or 10 Million Ways to Die. Writing critical tables is very hard work.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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The crit tables for the old Condensed Combat Rules from HARPers Bazaar #11 & #12 that Tim Dugger did were great. Any chance of seeing them republished in another format for use with HARP Fantasy?
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While the critical tables, regardless of source do have exact wording, the GM is always encouraged to change the wording to fit the situation. The "teeth" of the critical will remain unchanged.
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While the critical tables, regardless of source do have exact wording, the GM is always encouraged to change the wording to fit the situation. The "teeth" of the critical will remain unchanged.
Quite true. For crit tables, I would certainly like to have something similar to RMU where the crit roll determines the location. The current tables in Martial Law are a bit heavy to use. I'll probably end up making my own tables and hopefully remain sane.
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I'm thinking of just using the hit location table from HARP Fantasy and modifying the description for the part of the body it's hitting. Which isn't to say Martial Law's tables aren't nice, sometimes I just want to get location, damage, mods, and be on to the next strike.
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One of the things I liked about the RM crit tables was the greater effects crits had if the area hit was not armored. It made my players think about wearing helmets and armoring their arms and legs despite the associated penalties.
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One of the things I liked about the RM crit tables was the greater effects crits had if the area hit was not armored. It made my players think about wearing helmets and armoring their arms and legs despite the associated penalties.
In the case of HARP, armor at these locations change the DB so they don't need to be reflected in the crit tables. ;)
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One of the things I liked about the RM crit tables was the greater effects crits had if the area hit was not armored. It made my players think about wearing helmets and armoring their arms and legs despite the associated penalties.
In the case of HARP, armor at these locations change the DB so they don't need to be reflected in the crit tables. ;)
TRue, but in HARP you can wear magical armor or other devices that increase your DB but are not actually covering specific areas, such as arms and legs.
One of things we did a while back was use the hit locations from HARP Martial Law and applied the DB for whatever armor was worn in that specific area rather than overall DB. Worked pretty well.
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True, but in HARP you can wear magical armor or other devices that increase your DB but are not actually covering specific areas, such as arms and legs.
One of things we did a while back was use the hit locations from HARP Martial Law and applied the DB for whatever armor was worn in that specific area rather than overall DB. Worked pretty well.
Great idea! But it does cause for more record keeping. That wouldn't work for some groups and only for half my current group.
I have realized that HARP is pretty much a modular system where you can take one section and put in your own. None are more modular than the combat section.
As some may know I have been using my own combat table that are inspired by the Rolemaster charts, the ones found in old HARP supplement Hack N' Slash, and a little from the core HARP tables.
Basically I have a separate table for each attack type and on each table there are 5 columns to represent each attack size (Tiny, Small, etc...) Then there are critical references of A through E on each table and I use whatever Rolemaster Crit table that seems appropriate. Each table goes up to 150 with a cap at 120 unless you open end. It works quite well as it is no where near as repetitive as the HARP core tables (where someone using a small or tiny weapon would almost always get max damage at higher skill levels) and not as time consuming as the Rolemaster tables. But a drawback is they do add a little time to combat.
I have been thinking of developing special crit tables that are a little more generic and require a little more input from the GM. But that is taking longer than expected.
I may be submitting them as a GCP article soon enough.
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Basically I have a separate table for each attack type and on each table there are 5 columns to represent each attack size (Tiny, Small, etc...) Then there are critical references of A through E on each table and I use whatever Rolemaster Crit table that seems appropriate. Each table goes up to 150 with a cap at 120 unless you open end. It works quite well as it is no where near as repetitive as the HARP core tables (where someone using a small or tiny weapon would almost always get max damage at higher skill levels) and not as time consuming as the Rolemaster tables. But a drawback is they do add a little time to combat.
I have been thinking of developing special crit tables that are a little more generic and require a little more input from the GM. But that is taking longer than expected.
I may be submitting them as a GCP article soon enough.
That is exactly what I was thinking of doing. I was going to use the RMU crit tables from the playtest until the final ones comes out instead of the RMfrp tables. But in any case, please do submit it will make me a very happy GM. :)
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If some of you would rather be playing Rolemaster, which seems to be the case for a few of you, why not just do that?
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If some of you would rather be playing Rolemaster, which seems to be the case for a few of you, why not just do that?
Rolemaster is just too complicated for most of my players. The simplicity of HARP works and it has a lot of the flavor of RM. The critical tables of HARP are a bit lacking in variety, that's all. I'm currently using the Hack & Slash tables with pretty good results.
I will probably be looking towards RMU when it is eventually released, but in the meantime HARP is doing the job.
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Hello everyone,
I played HARP once years ago and I really liked it except I didn't much like the fancy critical charts. An acquaintance told me that the HARP book had an optional rule called Life Points that eliminated the need for the tables. So, I purchased the book planning to run it for my group. Unfortunately, I discovered that those rules are no longer in the book via a post here about different printings. This has left me a bit frustrated. Would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction where I could find those rules?
Thank you.
The Life Points option was removed when HARP Fantasy was revised to its enhanced version. You are the first person who has requested them.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
To be honest, I don't think it was a wise decision to leave the various alternative combat systems out. I've heard/read a number of people who like HARP or RM except for the tables, so that would be an option for those or at least to include them in Martial Law. To answer the OP, the only place you'll find those alternative rules is if you find the HARP Bazaar Annual book, which is out of print. Here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ICE-HARP-BAZAAR-ANNUAL-3006-NEW-FANTASY-RPG-BOOK/301815080061?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Dff57d3768c014505998317f0b594e7ee%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D141877521049) is one avaliable.
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Here is the issue with Life Points - it is a complete diversion from the base concept for the game. It ignores the concept of different types of attack doing different damage results. It also destroys the idea that any attack can be deadly.
Life Points based
upon their Constitution stat bonus plus the
number of ranks developed in the Endurance skill.
So generally, your character at level 5 had about +10 for stat bonus and +18 for Endurance...
That's 28 life points and likely about 85 hits.
Your character can only receive a MAX of 8 hits and 2 life points per strike from a tiny attack.
If the individual strikes with a result of 101.
Standard rule reduces that to 81 due to the crit modifier (and then down to 80 due to damage cap).
Crush = 19 Hits. Foe is stunned 2 rounds and is at -15
Puncture = Foe takes 18 Hits, is stunned 2 rounds, bleeds 1 per round, and is at -5.
Slash = Foe takes 20 Hits, is stunned 1 round, bleeds 1 per round, and is at -15.
Grapple = Foe takes 10 Hits, is stunned 1 round, and is at -20.
There are a number of other charts with different results.
Using Life Points...
101 result - 20 attack size modifier = 81
Round down to nearest multiple of 5 = 80
2 points of damage for every 5 = 32 points of damage
1 life point of damage for every 10 = 8
But wait, you were using a tiny weapon... you max at 8 and 2. I still have 78 hits and 26 life points.
I can stand up to your attack for at least 9 more rounds because the most damage you can do to me with a tiny weapon is 72 hits and 18 life points.
The OP's issue was that the combat in HARP was too fancy with multiple critical charts and damage results.
The complaint that others seem to point to is that results are not varied enough and tend to get repetitive.
These are two different issues. To the original poster, I recommend you simply use the charts, but for every bleed, round of stun or -5 maneuver penalty add 5 hits of damage. Simply subtract it from your hits. I recommend you leave in place any of the more serious results (collapsing, bleeding out, beheading, etc.) - but otherwise count those as +10 or +25. But note that this is not really HARP when you play it this way - but if it works for you. Enjoy!
Crush = 19 Hits. Foe is stunned 2 rounds and is at -15 = 19+10+15 = 44
Puncture = Foe takes 18 Hits, is stunned 2 rounds, bleeds 1 per round, and is at -5 = 18+10+5+5 = 38
Slash = Foe takes 20 Hits, is stunned 1 round, bleeds 1 per round, and is at -15 = 20+5+5+15 = 45
Grapple = Foe takes 10 Hits, is stunned 1 round, and is at -20 = 10+5+20 = 35
For those who feel it is too repetitive I would recommend the Martial Law rules (which have many more results) or feel free to incorporate RMU charts with their much more variable results. As for Hack & Slash.... I personally like it, but it does have an issue with magical scaling and despite many reviews to modify it, it was determined better to be left out at this time. That doesn't mean that HARP combat won't be revised some day.. it simply means that we're focusing resources on key things that are needed to make better use of the system that we have today.
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Actually, I was talking about the rules that came in the Bazaar Annual, more similar to D&D but still kept the letality of HARP. There's also one in the Vault (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item681), but it's just as complicated, if not more, than using the charts IMHO, but I guess it keeps the spirit. That's just my opinion, they are definitely worth checking out.
I don't mind the charts at all, I learned to be a GM using MERP so I'm seasoned in that aspect but I can see why it could be an issue to other people. I just feel it's a little sad to miss out such a great game just for the Critical charts. Those optional rules solve the problems quite nicely, sure it isn't in the same spirit but they do the trick. And if I recall correctly, they could kill a character in a single blow.
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The rules in the Bazaar Annual were the Hack & Slash rules (simply a reprint consolidation like the rest of the HB's that were included), and those are the ones that had issues being used with spell scaling. I agree that those are generally good, and in low magic games I have used them - but the issue keeps it from being released as officially supported rules now, and they really aren't needed right now. We'd rather focus resources on projects that address real needs for the product line. Again, I am not saying it won't be looked at again and either revised or alternate combat rules released - but for now it's not on the short term list. My own preference would be that if we're going to release an alternative it would not be a minor change - but rather something major and significant, which makes it an even bigger project.
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No, no, no. If the OP has issues with charts then Hack & Slash wouldn't make things easier now, would it? I'm talking about Page 41 of the book, the two-pages alternate combat rules before Hack & Slash that uses Damage Dices. Basically a hybrid between HARP and "that game that shall remain nameless".
Basically it goes like this: the first step is exactly like the HARP rules, roll d100, add OB and substract DB. If it's negative, well nothing happened, but if it's positive then you roll one damage dice, plus an extra one for every 20 points above zero. There are five damage dices, each for every attack size, from Tiny to Huge, it goes d4, d8, d10, d12 and d20 respectively. So, if your result is -say- 67 with a long sword, you roll 4d10 to determine how much damage was done, that number gets substracted from the character hit points(Endurance I suppose, though it doesn't say).
Then there are extra rules for determining stuns, bleeding and such. If you want to make it more lethal, roll one damage dice for each 10 points, instead of twenty.
I find it an elegant solution for those who can't deal with the charts. I came across a number of people who love HARP but can't cope with the Combat system, so I feel this rule should've been incorporated to the books. I don't think they go against the spirit of the game and after all one of the wonders of HARP(and RM) is the fact that it's modular, you can keep what you like and change whatever you don't without affecting the rest of the system.
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Thanks for the correction - I have never used that bit of rules, but I remember seeing them. I'll check it out tonight as I don't have that book with me now. Thanks!
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OK, I took a look at the Damage Dice rules.
I can say that I don't know of any specific issue with them, but the optional rules related to different critical results being added on top of the hits just seemed way overcomplicated for me - as most people know from my posts around here, I'm not a big fan of lots of extra calculations, especially with different calculations for different critical effects.
For those who don't have the rules, it basically awards d6 dice rolls for tiny, d8 for small, d10 for medium, d12 for large and d20 for huge. To determine the number of the type of dice, you take your result and divide by 20, rounding up. Not too bad - but effectively that means a result of 39 could yield 2 points of damage, while a 21 could yield 39. That may fit RM concept where there is a second die roll for the critical - but in HARP the general concept is the better your attack result the more damage you deliver.
Now for the part I especially don't care for....
if you did 39 points of damage, you divide the 39 by 10 (round down) and get 3 rounds of stun.
For bleeding, it doesn't matter what you damage result is - it's all about how many damage dice you rolled. Some attack types do 1 bleed per damage dice (beyond the 1st), and others do 2, and others do 1 per 2 damage dice after the first.
Maneuver penalties are awarded at -5 if your damage dice result is in the top half of the individual dice's roll (a 6 or better on a d10 or a 4 or better on a d6, etc.) if 2 dice are in the top half, then it's a -10.
Way too much to keep track of... give me a simple table and let me look up the result and move on.
If you leave out the criticals it still has the problem that a result of 101 using a large weapon (granting 6d12 damage) will yield on average 39 points of damage but could yield 6, while my result of 1 using the same weapon can generate up to 12 points of damage. Odds are it won't happen, but just the fact that it could would annoy me.... no, damage dice is way too many dice rolls, too much critical complexity, and not tied to the result directly enough to get me to use it.
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Oh, I agree with most of what you said, but I should've kept the system and let the players judge for themselves which one they prefer. If I were to use this system I wouldn't include stuns and bleeding, etc. It would be just plain hit points. That's IF I were to use it, which would be never, but like I said, having extra options don't hurt.
I'm perfectly happy with the core rules as they are, and if you guys could put up again the Gamemaster screen that has every chart in almost a single page, it would be awesome for new players. I love critical charts the way they are, they can get a little messy when penalties start building up to keep track of, but other than that it's my very favorite system for combat. I had a lot of fun with MERP, RMFRP and now with HARP, so you won't hear me complaining! :)
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My play experience with damage dice overcomplicated the game for me. They were supposedly introduced to that group to streamline combat, but it had the exact opposite effect in my mind.
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I agree. The optional damage dice system from the HB was okay for strait "the other system" type damage to endurance. But if you used the additional optional Stun/Bleeding/Hits Per Round rules, then it involved a lot of extra math which slowed combat down a little.
I really like the critical hits from all the ICE systems. It is what makes them unique. I still prefer using the old Condensed Combat Rules from HB 11 & 12. They offer enough variables, but still keep the overall simplicity of the original HARP crit charts.
Just my two CPs. :)