Author Topic: Survival Instinct  (Read 8040 times)

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 03:02:21 PM »
And how does veracity make one harder to damage?

Veracity means
1. habitual observance of truth in speech or statement; truthfulness: He was not noted for his veracity. 
2. conformity to truth or fact; accuracy: to question the veracity of his account. 
3. correctness or accuracy, as of the senses or of a scientific instrument.
4. something veracious; a truth.

The word that was probably intended was ferocity - but even that doesn't make sense to make it harder to hit or damage.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2009, 02:18:30 AM »
And how does veracity make one harder to damage?

Lol, I've always read it as tenacity!!  ;D
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Offline Pat

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2009, 01:33:59 AM »
And how does veracity make one harder to damage?

Veracity means
1. habitual observance of truth in speech or statement; truthfulness: He was not noted for his veracity. 
2. conformity to truth or fact; accuracy: to question the veracity of his account. 
3. correctness or accuracy, as of the senses or of a scientific instrument.
4. something veracious; a truth.


If anything veracity would make you easier to damage. If I remember correctly truth is the first casualty of war therefore, truthful people would die the quickest. It all makes sense....... (I think)

Offline Karizma

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2009, 02:08:16 PM »
Maybe it's voracity?

... Eat or be eaten?

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2009, 03:18:19 PM »
Again, I'd say that being voracious would make them more susceptible to being hit and would not improve their DB - but good try...
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2009, 03:28:26 PM »
Some of this issue lies with the fact that being hit/being hurt is mixed even more than it is in RM. .I would think that the concept of "Monster gets smarter as it gets more experienced, and so knows how to avoid damage" is already well established in the concept of higher OB at higher levels, and thus having more OB available to use for parry. . . so the smart 'ole dragon just jinks and jives a bit more. . . .but it already gets more OB as it goes up levels, thus having more available for parry, so the logic seems to not carry. . . .

I could see some sense to say giving a rising bonus to non combative creatures. . .like a mouse might get smarter and wilier and harder to hit, while not actually gaining OB. . . .such a creature would be a perfect pick for an odd, aside, DB gain over levels bonus. . . .since the animal is unlikely to ever develop a higher OB, which could then be put into parry for DB. . . .

So I do see a logical point for this kind of talent/ability, but I'd only think it would make sense if applied to a special circumstance where the talent user can't develop OB.

Then again, when you apply it to a person ala "Pacifist monk studies passive dodging so as to survive attacks without taking any offensive action." it starts to sound like Adrenal Defense.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2009, 03:36:03 PM »
In that case simply make Instinctive Defense a tiered talent. Minor, Major, Greater - +5, +10, +20 to DB.
The mouse, cat, rabbit, etc. gets Minor.
The PC with spidey sense gets Major.
The pacifist monk gets Greater.

Don't connect it to levels because this would be a mechanic that is unique to this skill/talent alone.
No other skill/talent (unless I'm forgetting something) allows for an automatic increase simply due to level increase (except the profession bonuses that are gained at every 3rd, 5th, 10th, or whatever level).

Level increases should grant DB's and Max # of Ranks - not directly increase skills or abilities.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2009, 03:47:15 PM »
Heh. . .thinking about it, this strikes me less as a monster/hero ability, and more a sidekick thing. . . .this being why the little kid never seems to get hit while all sorts of mayhem goes off around him. . .he crawls under the table as the shooting starts, then crawls to the desk just before a grenade hits the table. . .It's like the Mr Magoo power.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 01:50:01 PM »
I think that the key to this is in the title of the thread: Instinct. To a degree, intelligent species loose instincts, so they have to retrain them if they want them. Who hasn't heard the statement: "listen to your instincts"? We all have. That is because, as humans we have lost forgotten much of our wilder instincts. (I think that some of that is a good thing, btw.)

The opposite is true for unintelligent creatures. You don't see martial arts schools for grizzly bears - thankfully.  ;D They don't gain levels of fighter or rogue or anything. They are either bigger & tougher than the "average bear" or they are not.

Because of this difference between intelligent and unintelligent creatures I believe it is OK for wild/unintelligent (or less intelligent in some cases) to have a Survival Instinct (SI) DB bonus. It reflects their instinctual ability to move suddenly in hazardous situations. This mean that any creature that retains any "wildness" will be able to have SI to one degree or another (i.e., the mouse scampers and scurries out of the path of danger - relying upon both it's instincts and size to keep from getting hurt). This SI is reflected as a flat, untrained, bonus.

Intelligent creatures can train their SI (as a Talent), just not as well and it, of course, costs them DP, taking those DP away from other training they could be doing. How much it costs and what the benefit is will be up to the individual GM and their game. I would suggest a maximum of +50 or +60 with this, and apply encumbrance mods to the DB bonus gained through this Talent. Any armor worn should cut the bonus in half.

Otherwise, just allow Chi Defense to be learned by whoever wants it, with it's costs being determined as normal (2 if Favored Cat, 4 if not). Also, attributes don't add in to this bonus, as they already are for the basic DB. Only, it would apply as an all-around DB bonus. In this case, I would allow a skill check (with the appropriate -20 to all other actions that round) on the bonus column to determine an additional DB mod. for that round.

Just some quick options/ideas.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2009, 02:01:07 PM »
Animals do learn. (and non intelligent constructs like skeletons get programmed better)

The only way to get more SI is to go up levels.

Presumambly the older, wilier bear will be a higher level and get more SI bonus.

But they also get more ranks in Claw, which can be used for parry, which fits the same niche of "more experienced and more dangerous animal knows how to both attack and defend itself better."

Besides, take a look at the stat bonuses, the rats are of average human intelligence with no bonus/penalties to their smart-stats. I said it on another thread. . .I'd hate to be a farmer in a HARP world, dealing with all these sentient inteligence scale animals after my corn. . . "Damnit marge, I spent all day digging my way out of a pit trap, those rats are getting frisky again."
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2009, 02:23:58 PM »
If you go back to the beginning of the thread you will see that the reason why this is objected to is twofold -
1) Lack of explanation as to what is causing it.
2) Fact that it is prohibited for characters.

Using Randal's theories the "animal instinct" creatures would receive the flat bonus that is offered by the Instinctive Defense Talent, and if that is not enough flexibility then create tiered Instinctive Defense talents for different DPs and different costs and even go so far as to restrict it from any creature with a positive SD bonus, because isn't Self-Discipline the thing that inhibits instinctive reactions?

For the trained ability, that is fine as long as it is incorporated in such a way as to allow characters to use it.

One possible way to address this is to create a skill called Dodge and put it in the combat category. It would be Qu/Qu based.  Apply a 50% of the calculated skill bonus to the DB and have that impacted by Encumbrance.


Encumbrance         In Combat        Full Dodge
No Encumb     -       50% of Dodge     100% of Dodge
Light Encumb -        30% of Dodge     60% of Dodge
Med Encumb -         10% of Dodge     20% of Dodge
Hvy Encumb -          0% of Dodge      10% of Dodge

Now you have 2 fully explainable methods - one attached to instincts and represented in a flat bonus, and the other a DP developable skill which works to enhance the benefits of dodging and works hand in hand with parry and the other combat skills.

Note - This was not playtested, so the figures may need adjusting and/or other aspects of combat may need tweaking, but at least it's not a generic bonus given without reason.
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Offline masque1223

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2009, 02:24:27 PM »
You don't see martial arts schools for grizzly bears - thankfully.  ;D They don't gain levels of fighter or rogue or anything. They are either bigger & tougher than the "average bear" or they are not.
Off-topic, but that comment has inspired me to give some thought to modelling the Panzerbjorn from the His Dark Materials books.  I think I'll start a new thread on that, so as to not clutter up this one.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2009, 11:23:51 PM »
OK... about that last post I made on this thread... purge it from your mind... destroy it and pretend I never wrote it.  While HARP combat may not be perfect, it need not be redesigned just to resolve this issue. The use of Full Parry or Chi Defense or even a similar Combat Style that mimics Chi Defense should cover it.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2009, 12:17:02 AM »
That's kinda how I was seeing this. . . .

If you're a wily squrrill that's learned to avoid being hit, it's chi defense

If you're a slick leopard that knows how to jink and jive inside a weapon before tearing in, that just sounds like more ranks of claw applied to parry.

YMMV, but I have an instinctive distrust of things that look like handwaving, and I have yet to meet an explaination of this rule that makes sense to me.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2009, 03:13:59 AM »
The name of the talent/skill, together with the "flavor text" part of its description, it's not important imho: it's just fluff, you can change it to whatever fits your setting. The important bit is in the mechanics, since this is the part that actually matters when you're playing.


Chi Defense has a major problem: you need to activate it and doesn't last forever. Giving it to monsters like demons or dragons wouldn't be a great idea imho, I like the fact that their capabilities are beyond mortals' reach. For animals and similar foes it could be a good idea, though.

The actual in-game effect of Survival Instinct is that of nullifying one rank per level of opponents' attack skills. No matter how skilled, a PC will be always one step behind when fighting a creature with this talent.
Imho in this sense it works better than a fixed bonus to DB, because of the diminishing returns (giving a straight +5 per level to DB would have caused problems at higher levels, and bonuses like those given by Natural Armor don't scale with level).
For this reason, I think that it should reserved to Big Bad Monsters only: common animals and low-level monsters shouldn't have it.

Should PCs be able to develop it? I'm still not sure about it, probably it depends on the campaign you're playing...
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2009, 08:19:08 AM »
The name of the talent/skill, together with the "flavor text" part of its description, it's not important imho: it's just fluff, you can change it to whatever fits your setting. The important bit is in the mechanics, since this is the part that actually matters when you're playing.

True, I get where you're coming from, it could be called "Bonus DB" with explaination provided by the GM. But, recall that there are instances where the "Type" of bonus matters. . . .like you should get an armor/toughness bonus at all times, regardless of if you can move or are aware of the attack, while parry bonus requires a declared opponant, and a quickness DB bonus requires you to be aware you're under attack. . .thus there are actual mechanical variations in play, the TYPE of DB bonus makes the DB apply or not in varied situations, as laid out in the rules.

Quote
Chi Defense has a major problem: you need to activate it and doesn't last forever.

I have no problem with the idea that a rabbit, if aware of danger, could make itself really hard to hit, then gets tired, and not so hard to hit (And I've also seen prey animals start their duck-n-cover routine and trip or run into something, or run right into the attacker. . .i.e. fumble/fail to activate).

Quote
Giving it to monsters like demons or dragons wouldn't be a great idea imho, I like the fact that their capabilities are beyond mortals' reach.

Agreed here also, but not sure this is the best way to go about it.

Quote

For animals and similar foes it could be a good idea, though.


<points at rabbit-chi defense comment above, and dog-parry comment below>

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The actual in-game effect of Survival Instinct is that of nullifying one rank per level of opponents' attack skills. No matter how skilled, a PC will be always one step behind when fighting a creature with this talent.
Imho in this sense it works better than a fixed bonus to DB, because of the diminishing returns (giving a straight +5 per level to DB would have caused problems at higher levels,

Again I agree the +5/lv seems too much, I don't see why a human who studies combat constantly is at a disadvantage vs a dog, simply because the dog is an animal. . .animals, if anything, should be at a DB penalty. . .man fights dog with sword, dog's version of "parry" is "bite the end of the stick and take it away" which is counter productive with a sword. . . .with the rare exception of arena bred combat pit animals or long career man-eaters, animals usually "learn" the logic of weapons just before they die, thus failing to actually learn anything. (i.e. I see more logic in "animals take a 1/2 penalty to parry vs weapons", just like an unarmed man would.). . .few animal stories I've ever heard relate to them being hard to hit, far more of a problem is that in their utter ignorance, they kill themselves on the weapon and still maul the human. (Bears, boars, lions will all "Run up the spear" and maul you, inflicting mortal wounds on themselves just to get a couple hits in before they die).

If this is some sort of innate dodginess, it sounds like a Qu bonus, if it's learned dodginess it's Chi Defense, if it's learned combat maneuvering it's parry, and if it's toughness it's an armor bonus. Per my first comment in this post, each of those resolves differently, and applies or doesn't in different situations.

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and bonuses like those given by Natural Armor don't scale with level).


How about simply stating that demon hide or dragon scale is "Bonus armor" and granting a higher than possible for a normal natural armor bonus? (hell, just the layer of blubber on a bear or whale will act as padding to a point their armor should be tougher than just their hide).

Quote

For this reason, I think that it should reserved to Big Bad Monsters only: common animals and low-level monsters shouldn't have it.


Agreed there. I don't even have any objection to the idea of a DB bonus talent that can be applied to certain monsters to reflect supernatural nastiness of some sort, be it a higher than naturally possible toughness, super quickness, or any other supernatural answer. . .I just object to it applying to a dog on one hand, and to it applying as a level tied bonus rather than just a flat bonus like the rest of the talents you can use to build monsters. . .it should also be tied into the logic more specifically, so you know what counters this bonus, is it quickness, toughness, dodge, what? (In the end, that being the problem with "Generic" DB)

It would also be nice if you could apply it to supernatural monsters that are supposed to be super quick/tough/canny and not apply it to all of them. . .some creatures the concept doesn't seem to have a logical hook to hang on.

Quote

Should PCs be able to develop it? I'm still not sure about it, probably it depends on the campaign you're playing...


Agreed, but first it'd need to be laid out as a talent . . .be nice if it was mechanically similar to the other talents too (it only resembles the professional skill bonuses now). . .frankly, I'd say all the talents being allowed or not should "depend on the type of campaign you're playing".
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2009, 08:23:22 AM »
Agreed on the animals - let them use Instinctive Defense and make it tiered if you want to have it more or less powerful.

Add in a skill that is developable with the stat bonuses from Qu/Qu - you effectively get the same thing - except a skill can be developed up to 3 ranks per level while Survival Instinct is effectively only 1 rank per level.   Maybe you do it that way or maybe you make it 1/3 of your skill bonus applies to your DB.

+5 Qu Bonus and 10 ranks (3rd level) in this skill = +60 skill bonus or +20 to DB - maybe make the +60 for Full Dodge.

A 10th level could have 33 ranks for a +83 bonus + Qu Stat bonusx2 (assume +5) = +93
+93 for full dodge and +31 to DB

I would not change HARP as a whole to this, but I could definitely see this applied in certain scenarios as a house rule and I would not limit it to Big Bad Monsters because when you are a big bad PC why should they have advantages that you don't.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2009, 08:24:17 AM »
Hmmm... now I want to pull out MaFG and re-calculate animals DB using Chi Defense instead of Survival Instinct...  ;D
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Offline Marc R

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2009, 08:51:11 AM »
I could see a mongoose using chi-defence. . . .I could see a bear having an innate toughness/armor. . .I could see a spider having a really high Qu bonus. . .And I could see any higher level animal having more OB to put into DB.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Survival Instinct
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2009, 09:52:51 AM »
Wait, maybe I see why squirrels could have a Survival Instinct talent...

I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.