Topic: RMSS hits variant rules?

[jdrakeh]

Are there any good (i.e., tested) variant rules for Hits out there? Specifically, I'm looking for a rule that divorces Hits from character growth (so Hits don't escalate as characters grow). Any assistance is much appreciated 

[markc]

 I do not know of any but there were some rules for RM2 about a races max hits. IMO you could take that and figure out a weighted system based on what ever stat, background, race, etc you would want to use.
 I do not know where you might find that info without buying a product but it should be in RM2 Character Law or a product like that.

MDC

[Kalu]

Are there any good (i.e., tested) variant rules for Hits out there? Specifically, I'm looking for a rule that divorces Hits from character growth (so Hits don't escalate as characters grow). Any assistance is much appreciated 

In my game over on RPGRM I have reduced the bonus progression of the Body Development skill to something like 0*4*3*2*1. This seems to me like a simple way of reducing the average amount of hit points for all characters while working only with the inherent mechanics of the system. It may work for you.

//K

[jdrakeh]

In my game over on RPGRM I have reduced the bonus progression of the Body Development skill to something like 0*4*3*2*1. This seems to me like a simple way of reducing the average amount of hit points for all characters while working only with the inherent mechanics of the system. It may work for you.

//K

Interesting. How do you find this effects combat with regard to pre-statted monsters and NPCs (who are presumably construccted using the default progressions)?

[Kalu]

Interesting. How do you find this effects combat with regard to pre-statted monsters and NPCs (who are presumably construccted using the default progressions)?

Well, I haven't tested that out thoroughly yet, but for now I'm just multiplying NPC hit points by 2/3.

//K

[yammahoper]

I've been toying with an idea for a while now.

Basically, attacks only deliver crits, no hits.  Hits delivered from the crit are applied normally.  Large creatures would do the hits listed on the table along with crits, while huge would do x2 hits (special abilities might increase damage).

A strength spell that doubles hits delivered would now allow normal sized pc's to deliver hits as if they were large creatures.  A larger creature striking a huge creature would deliver no hits from attack tables, only from crits, while a huge creature striking a large would do normal hits from the attack table versus large foes and x2 versus normal sized foes.

That's the basics.  I played with these mechanics trying to come up with a way to shrink the traditional Arms Law attack table to something smaller, looking more like a static mnv table than a big table of numbers.  Removing hits except through crits worked, as did assigning dice values to figure hits (that adds time to resolution, though the variable is fun).  In the end, removing all hits and having attacked tables that stage the crit level worked best, with hit mods applied to the critical result (i.e. no hits at all on the attack table with damage multipliers applied to crit results, a complete reversal of the traditional critical application).

Such a system would work great with armor by the piece too.  Certainly, it makes it much harder to knock someone out.

Just babbling here.

[jdrakeh]

That's a cool idea, too. For me, the big thing is that the escalation of hit point/hits once characters reach a certain stage in their life is highly unrealistic. While doing research for my P&P to RM conversion, I discovered that I preferred P&P in this regard. I, of course, prefer RM in pretty much all other regards.

FWIW, the most powerful being on the planet in the default P&P setting has something like 24 hit points — but obscene offensive and defensive capabilities gained over four centuries. It seemed like this same approach (statis HP w/ escalating skill progression) would probably work well in RM, too.

[Arioch]

I've been toying with an idea for a while now.

Basically, attacks only deliver crits, no hits.  Hits delivered from the crit are applied normally.  Large creatures would do the hits listed on the table along with crits, while huge would do x2 hits (special abilities might increase damage).

I've also thougth of doing something similar, but with no hit at all, only critical result and descriptors (penalties to actions, stunned, death in #rounds...). Problem is that it would need a huge amount of work 

That's a cool idea, too. For me, the big thing is that the escalation of hit point/hits once characters reach a certain stage in their life is highly unrealistic. While doing research for my P&P to RM conversion, I discovered that I preferred P&P in this regard. I, of course, prefer RM in pretty much all other regards.

The fact is that unless you're Large or Huge a high amount of HPs in RM doesn't mean very much, it's just harder to give you penalties for HP loss... Thanks to criticals, even a 300 HPs fighter can be knocked out by a single blow.

[jdrakeh]

The fact is that unless you're Large or Huge a high amount of HPs in RM doesn't mean very much, it's just harder to give you penalties for HP loss... Thanks to criticals, even a 300 HPs fighter can be knocked out by a single blow.

Rendering hits largely meaningless in some situations (those involving critical strikes) doesn't actually remove them from the game, thus they aren't rendered useless in all situations (non-critical strikes). I mean, it's fine to say that hits don't mean much if you hit somebody with a critical, but when you don't hit somebody with a critical, large hit reserves can serve as buffers (for me, problematic ones) between life and death.

I just don't like that in simulationist games. It strikes me as a bit odd that a game like RM (which is very heavy on reality simulation in most regards) would retain an obviously unrealistic approach to damage — perhaps especially because it does have such an exhaustive system for recreating realistic weapon damage and traumatic wounding. I mean, you have a system that works very hard to foster verisimilitude. . . and then you have hit points, which are pretty much the RPG anti-thesis of verisimilitude in injury.

I guess, in many ways, it seems to me that escalating hits are more an artifact from the early days of RM rather than a true, integral, part of the current system. If there is another, future, revision of RM — I'd like to see hits get dumped in favor of a system that tracks actual wounds ala HarnMaster. I think that the current Arms Law system would support this with a little tinkering. Until then, though, I'd be happy with a good, tested, houserule that limits hits to somewhat low reserves. 

[Arioch]

jdrakeh, I totally agree with you, hit points are a leftover from d&d and the earlier versions of RM. As I said I thought of dropping them, but I never done anything about it yet...

[jdrakeh]

jdrakeh, I totally agree with you, hit points are a leftover from d&d and the earlier versions of RM. As I said I thought of dropping them, but I never done anything about it yet...

I've done something similar for D&D (i.e., a "no hit points" hack of sorts) but I'm just not familiar enough with RMSS to attempt that kind of revision on my own

[Arioch]

Just had an idea, it needs to be elaborated but could be a good start:

HPs represent pain, so maybe they could be turned into a short-term penalty to all actions (keepoing critical damage to represent permanent or long-lasting injuries/penalties).
For example, a 14HPs worth wound would mean that your character gets a -14 to all actions for a short amount of time (maybe just one round).
Body Development skill bonus could be used to recover from the pain and cancel the temporary penalties: each round you make a maneuver using your Body Development skill bonus and if you succeed you cancel all penalties given by "hit points"...

[jdrakeh]

HPs represent pain, so maybe they could be turned into a short-term penalty to all actions (keepoing critical damage to represent permanent or long-lasting injuries/penalties).

For example, a 14HPs worth wound would mean that your character gets a -14 to all actions for a short amount of time (maybe just one round).

That's similar to what I did for d20/D&D as described in the Simple 20 Appendices (Appendix 3: Descriptive Damage). Of course, making that work in RM means jettisoning the critical results native to my own system and integrating those of AL.

In this vein, it might be easier to simply add another chart to Arms Law — providing non-critical wound descriptions to be used in place of non-descriptive hit loss. While it's true that this won't actually get rid of hits, it will obscure them enough that I can probably live with them a bit easier (they really drive me batty for some reason).

Body Development skill bonus could be used to recover from the pain and cancel the temporary penalties: each round you make a maneuver using your Body Development skill bonus and if you succeed you cancel all penalties given by "hit points"...

Cool idea!

[runequester]

Runequest did this.

I dont mind it too much in RM honestly. To me, "hit points" represents being able to power through the pain and shock. The crits will kill you

You could just change Body Development to standard progression, and that'll curtail it a lot right there.

[yammahoper]

I too would like to see hits changed. 

[jolt]

It does seem to be a strange dichotomy.  Hit Points (and their like) add a level of abstraction to a game usually with the result, and maybe even the intent, of having the characters feel more heroic or larger-than-life.  The crits on the other hand add a heavy dose of potential lethality.

I personally like the dichotomy.  A fighter, after some levels, is unlikely to have to worry about concussion hits much.  But a pure spell-user will.  Most of them can only gain a single rank of BD a level and it has a high DP cost.  But a broken arm crit is a broken arm crit.  I like the end result of that.

I like the current "feel" of RM but I wouldn't shed any tears if they dumped regular hits for something else as long as it worked.

I don't think simulationist is a good term for RM as RM has far too many nuances to be so simply labeled.  Realism can be a good thing at times but too often it ends up being the leprechaun's gold at the end of the rainbow; you can spend your whole life chasing it and never be satisfied.

jolt

[chukoliang]

Lowering hits? That seems absurd. In RMSS the player will naturally have his returns degrade, after so many ranks he will still be spending tons of points but not get back much of a return. Around 10  (5 if he is min maxing), he is maxed out he will be spending points to get fractions of a hitpoint. All but the most stubborn go to developing other skills. And at a certain point he can't gain anymore hitpoints.

In any skill. I would suggest the problem is not the system,but that one of your players is cheating or Most likely does not understand that after so many ranks his return dimishes. What is it, the first 10 ranks are times 3. The next 10 ranks are times 2. The next 10 ranks are times 1. Then the next 10 ranks are .5 and it just keeps diminishing.  But most stop buying points at this point and start diversifying on other much more needed skills. This happens with the Category also. So at best with talent law the guy may seem to have tons of hitpoints, but by the time he hits 5 (unless he is using talents improperly or the Gm has been to liberal) his returns start getting very much under control.

On top of that for the adolecence and first rank development there a limit of like 10 ranks per level. Even if his skill is super cheap, the best training package, and body development occupational (he can not pass that limit). I don't think he can have that many ranks in Body Development. After that he is limited to the number of ranks he can purchase per level. Even if he was a warrior, with the talent to add an extra rank, he could at most develop 4 ranks, and if it were occupational (I don't think that is possible) he would get 12 ranks. Again my point is, he would be maxed out by lvl 5. Not really gaining extra hits and such after that.

Most games should go 10-20 levels. He would of stopped gaining any appreciable increase in hitpoints around lvl 5 (if min maxing), most max out at 10. So what's the problem. At worse he is super for 5 levels. After that he becomes Mr. Ordinary for his rank.

Again most Gm's thro tons of mobs on that type of guy. Eventually he gets critted enough so that even Fate points can't save him and he dies. He has to start leveling again, while the rest of the group moves on.

If the Gm requires skill checks for things like direction sense, and other non combat skills regularly. The group needs many people skilled in it (because it takes forever to get decent in the skills). So the group naturally has to spread out in their skill set.  And will brow beat the min maxers to spread out so they can enjoy their characters more.

My gm solves this by making the min maxer get seperated and lost in the woods by himself. And have to rely on skills like direction sense,star gazing survival, hunting, firestarting, etc. After being lost like that you know your character needs alot more skills than body development to survive

The rules of RMSS keep all skills diminishing Body Development is a skill, you can not even devolop the Category in. Your race decides the points and the hit return you get. Some races seriously drop on this. Maybe the problem is the person is not aware of his proper racial Body Deveopment rules. 

If you seriously adjusted the rules for body development it would only be fair to lower the hits for the beast. As they too can have ridiculous hitpoints. And then you would have to lower the damage done on hits. Some hits are 20, or even 43 on a litely armored foe, some have talents or do double damage or more...plus the crit. And you have a problem with the players having to many hits?

And besides this is RM , I don't care if you had 1,000 hitpoints (I don't think that is even possible), one crit can kill you. Most players need the hits because Gm's throw 10-20 mobs at you at a time. Even if they are low level trash mobs these guys all have the potential to take the player out at any time. The rules for ressurection have such a penalty that it is almost not even worth resurrecting your guy (if you can find and pay a cleric who is lvl 12). Taking hitpoints away just seems like a GM power trip to me. But each is entitled to their opinion.

Add to this the fact that you have exhaustion points, and the tanks have to hide behind their sheilds taking a beating while trying to regain your exhaustion points. Add in penalties for your hps lost, bleeding, no instant heals (unless they are 5 levels lower) and other factors. And you need those hitpoints.

And if your still  having problems with hits, change the type of mobs you send at them. Undead steal consitution just from being near you. The player can actually have full hits and be drained of constitution and be a lvl 1 created undead.  If the group has no cleric (not many want to play clerics in our group, the cost is just to high to develop a D&D style cleric). It takes 5-10 levels to be able to have the stats to wear plate. Plus you need the restricted transcend armor skills. Skill development is very costly. And poof they have no way to really heal their constitution in long drawn out fights against undead. The end result they end up serving some necromancer.

Or maybe deadly plants, my wife was GM once, she loved those crazy poisonous plants. Try living without the means to heal that kind of stuff. Especially if you have half the hitpoints.  Or maybe curses, which even the lower level ones are absurdly powerful.  Maybe create a  lair of rust monsters (would take some work on the GM's part) and there goes the armor (he will need tons of hitpoints). What if that enemy of yours overcasted by 5 levels and hit say a lvl 5 group with a lvl 8 or 10 spell? And the fact that Evil list (usually only used by the GM are super powerful) and I think all in all even a min maxed player is in balance.

Then there are traps. Add in some traps and it doesn't matter how many hitpoints you have. Bleed affects, gases, poisons.

Again our GM once used a "magic" circle, I  stepped in and a demon was there, the demon threatened us with death, but instead made us do stuff for him. It took us a while to realize the things were illogical and it was an illusionist. Add in the mentalist Hourodi (spelling) that uses seduction and magic to work peoples emotions. A bard with his mentalist spells. The ways around it are endless. Thus the reason they are in balance.

A well balanced approach from a GM instantly tears down the hitpoints issue. I don't perceive it to be one. And crits can and do kill players regularly, even with fate points. Our High fantasy GM also rolls extremely lucky, so we have seen many crazy deaths. Add to this our hardcore gm when playing loves to overcast his spells (usually killing himself and taking many with him). And death at least in our group is all to real...hitpoints have never been an issue. I can't imagine a Gm wanting more player death, but hey that from my groups point of view.

My group has a high fantasy type GM and a super hardcore (your so poor you wonder why you even keep adventuring, because begging seems more lucrative type GM). I'm not kidding we don't even get training packages because he always puts us in jail or some story to take everything away.  We don't even get horses because eveytime you go in a cave, they escape, an animal eats them or someone steals them. And even though some characters seem min maxed for the first 5 levels, by the time the group reaches 5, the others start catching up. At 10 it's all balanced.

So in our group the hitpoints work fine. It's balanced with all the other mobs in the game. Magic really balances it out (mentalism, illusions, summoned elementals). But I guess that is just our group.

But then again there are many GM's out there who only feel a game is balanced (and fun, usually only for them) if they kill all their characters off before they reach 5th level.

All that being said, and that i'm obviously against lowering hitpoints...

If you really want to control the hitpoints easily. Just lower the amount of points they get for each rank of body development for the races. It will scale down everyone's hitpoints...you should probably including mobs too. And you very quickly have solved your problem...Thus the beauty of RMSS (probably all RM) anything is easily fixed. The game is that flexible

[jdrakeh]

Lowering hits? That seems absurd.

Thanks for the input. I think I can safely ignore everything else you have to say

[GrumpyOldFart]

Lowering hits? That seems absurd.

Thanks for the input. I think I can safely ignore everything else you have to say

Why? Do you consider there to be no possibility of his points or his logic being valid?

The above remark makes you appear to be looking only for agreement, rather than discussion. I don't claim to read minds, so I won't say that is what you're looking for... but things like the above definitely make it look that way.

[Arioch]

In any skill. I would suggest the problem is not the system,but that one of your players is cheating or Most likely does not understand that after so many ranks his return dimishes.

It seems to me that he understand how RM works very well, but that he simply doesn't like the fact that you can get more HPs when you gain levels...