Topic: Tinkering with the Ranger?

[Usdrothek]

Our group plays a magic rare, low powered ( < level 10) campaign. It is our group's opinion that the Ranger (alnother classic MERP class) as it currently stands in RMSS/RMFRP is much underpowered, significantly so at levels <10.

If you want a "stealthy, nature savvy" character, you would be much better going for a rogue or outrider and developing the relevent skills: tracking, stalk/hide, perceptive skills, survival, etc.

Sure the ranger has a few useful spells (not many at low level), but several of these are duplicated by available skills. I did take note that Arioch has suggested alternate Ranger base lists which would help alieviate the problem somewhat.

Given the high cost to develop weapons (3/7 first weapon cost??), spells and PPs. What are the wise people's opinions out there about other adjustments to this class, similar to the "tinkering with the bard" discussion also on this forum.

[markc]

 First I would like to point out that rangers excel generally in the woods and the jobs you would find there. There spell lists are designed to help them out in the woods and may or may not be useful in adventuring situations. When the ranger is outside there natural environment they can have trouble.

 In my game I let the ranger pick any realm of magic. They have to abide by all that entails both the good and the bad and there base spell lists are moved to the realm. I also take out the animal summons spell list because the spell list does not fit well in my game and add in the Wyrd Bow spell list that can be found on the guildcompanion.com web site. In the past I have also allowed the ranger to pick spell lists from a list that I had made or allow them to select 1 list from any where with GM approval. Most of the time i said no and provided an alternate spell list for them to take. I also used the Channeling Companion's idea of focusing the spell lists of the ranger based on there background and who they learned from. I found that quite a few of the lists in the Channeling Companion were a good fit for the ranger.

 Yes IMO the player does want to decide if they want to be a pure arms, pure arms with some spells, semi-spell user with a few spells or a semi-spell user with a lot of spells. That is a lot of options for a player to think about during PC creation. I have also found that rangers can be rather week at low levels but they can be very useful at mid or higher levels depending on the game and campaign.
 Also some GM's might let you adjust some of the DP costs for skills with an background or talent point expenditure. In the past I have made the talent very focused and only let a player change 1 or at most 2 skills DP levels and not let them change anything they want. On the talent point if your GM has Talent Law they can decide to give the ranger a boost by providing trained skill selection that can really prop up a rangers skill totals.

 Also you might want to check the guildcompanion.com for Ranger articles as one may have been done expressing changes thay have made to their ranger profession. I know there are some that talk about the warrior mage and changing the ranks and spell lists of those around and that might give you an idea.

MDC

[Dark Schneider]

I think you are underestimating the ranger, it is an outdoor profession, and in outdoor is very powerfull, as semi-spell user skills can cost more than for non-spell suers (like the outrider). If not, then the rogue and outrider would be the underpowered, do you not agree?.
If a ranger can have the same skills bonus, and spells, what is the reason of outrider existence?.

I will enumerate some very powerfull skills that ranger can do over rogue or outrider:

1) Better hide, with 'nature's guises' list you have more bonus for stalking/hide.

2) Advantage for combat in outdoor: using 'nature's summons' you can use a guardian, and in lvl 10 you can summon 10 guardians! (in lvl 20 are 20 guardians!), so while you travel in outdoors, who will be the mad one that will combat against a ranger?.

3) 'Nature's summons' have many other uses, like having food with no need of developing skills, travel faster (summon a mount), no need for 'region lore' for travel to desired place, do you want more?.

4) You will never lose with 'path mastery', and following a person is easy as you can have images of characters by their tracks.

5) You have night vision at low cost (lvl 2), a very usefull effect that brings you great advantage in shadows (no awareness penalties).

6) 'Inner ways' gives you powers that only clerics are able to do, in other words, ranger doesn't need a cleric for protections.

7) 'Nature's ways' gives you the same advantages than skills (water, food, etc.) but with more efficiency (the skill have more % of failure until you have a good bonus).

8 ) Surfaces are not a problem for ranger, with 'moving ways'. So if you apply a modifier (to initiative or OB) by surface reason, ranger is not affected. Ranger can fight over the water!.

I think the main reason for ranger underestimation is because it usually has lesser OB than rogue or outrider and in a typical hack'n slash campaign is not the best. D&D gives us the idea that only OB is important in RPG, but you need to travel, food, water, outdoor survival, and ranger can does all of them very good, adding other good things (as mentioned before).

It is not possible having all things, so you must choose between having greater skill bonuses or having access to spells.

Think about this, skills have an end, there is a point where ranks give low bonus to skills, while spells effects are constant (for example the +50 of some ranger spells), as any spell-using character, ranger a is longer career character.

If your only worry is about weapons, then use talents for create a better-combat ranger, talents are for that, the same profession can be very different, so you can create a better-combat ranger (with bonus to OB, making main weapon everyman, etc.), a magical ranger (aura for more PPs, magical resistance, etc.), and many other possibilities.

I think talents are for that, for giving your charcater your desired 'point', as talents are not for creating super-powerfull characters, I recommend you to double or triple the talents cost (we are using double cost and works well).

But in any case, I have exposed before that ranger is not underpowered.

[Arioch]

2) Advantage for combat in outdoor: using 'nature's summons' you can use a guardian, and in lvl 10 you can summon 10 guardians! (in lvl 20 are 20 guardians!), so while you travel in outdoors, who will be the mad one that will combat against a ranger?.

Save the fact that if a summoned animal is harmed/attacked in any way he got a +50RR to break the bond of the summoning spell and will probably escape from combat...

[Ecthelion]

We've had two Ranger characters during our RMSS/RMFRP time and none of the players had the feeling that the character was underpowered. Most of the reasons why the profession is balanced were already listed by Dark Schneider. Btw., the Nature's Summons list was seldom used and/or developed by those two Ranger characters we had. So the list is not the main means to make the profession powerful.

Just my 2 cents

[Dark Schneider]

Save the fact that if a summoned animal is harmed/attacked in any way he got a +50RR to break the bond of the summoning spell and will probably escape from combat...

You can't send them to attack, but I am sure the spell says that summoned animals will defend the caster, so if something wants to attack the caster then summoned animals are able to attack with no RR, is a perfect outdoor defense spell.

[markc]

 In my game the Nature Summons list works well for the ranger but they have to be alone or the anmimal gets a RR roll modified by the situation around the ranger. Yes this puts a limit on the Nature Summons list but it has worked well in my low to lower magic game.

MDC

[rdanhenry]

Most summoned animals will not fight, but a Guardian will fight to defend the Ranger. That's what Summon Guardian is for. Note that the duration of the spell is 8 hours. Perfect for protecting the Ranger while he sleeps.

The note about the summoned animal being attacked is surely referring to an attack by the Ranger or his associates. If someone unknown to the Ranger or an unexpected enemy attacks, this is hardly an abuse of the spell. The point is mainly not to trick an animal with a summons and then kill it for food or otherwise abuse its trust in answering the summons.

If a Ranger really wants to be a killer, develop a melee weapon, tracking skills, stealth skills, and Ambush. Then use Nature's Guises and Path Mastery as your spell lists. You can follow your target until it is a good time to strike. Act at night, you have cheap Nightvision. So you are sneaking through the dark of night (good bonus) and add on some spells from Nature's Guises. Silent Moves gives +10 to +50 bonus. At 8th level you get Shadow for +25 to +75 bonus with night putting it near the upper end of the range. If you can lie in wait, you can use Hues, Shade, and Silent Moves to get +45 to +125 on your Hiding roll. Trade Hues for Self Cloaking at higher level and make that +110 to +150. If you can afford to develop Moving Ways and have PP left, you can get a magical edge on a getaway after your surprise attack. If you have at least half as many Rangers as there are enemy targets, you may not be the ones running after the ambush.

You can forget about Ambush and focus on a ranged weapon. With stealth and mobility, you can use harassing hit and run tactics that way as well. Leave traps to discourage pursuit (create magically at 8th level or by overcasting).

Rangers have a broad selection of skills they are "typically" good at -- stealth, melee, ranged combat, tracking, wilderness survival, magic...

They are not good at rapid development, but they have a lot of 1 DP first rank cost skills. That includes the best Athletic * Endurance costs, bar none. So if you use hit and run tactics, a rank in each of Distance Running, Sprinting, and Swimming is only 3 DPs. You can do the running part well, even without your spells tailored for the job, cheaply. I do find DPs tight for Rangers, but as mentioned, defining your Ranger's specialty will help with that and you can branch out as you reach higher levels. Only a high-level Ranger will be all things Rangery and do them well, but that's not unreasonable.

The one thing I might do to strengthen the Ranger is change his Subterfuge * Stealth +5 bonus to a Subterfuge group bonus. While a few Subterfuge * Mechanics skills are not "Rangery", most are.

Oh, and if you want a more Aragorn-flavored Ranger, you could substitute the Animist list Herb Mastery for one of the Ranger's lists.* However, I advise only doing this if you use all the herbal skills. If you've collapsed them to one, the Ranger can do fine with skill alone.

The Ranger is not a good Profession if your game is mainly dungeon crawls, but if you spend a good amount of time in the wholesome fresh air of the wilderness, they are a choice to seriously consider.

[markc]

 If you have the Mentalism Companion you might want to look at the Animal Bonding list as IMO it is a perfect list for a Ranger.

 An option that just popped into my head was maybe the GM will let you drop a base list to improve one of your combat skills. It never hurts to ask if a GM will help you or if he feels the profession is balanced.

 I still think a Rogue is a good profession and if I remember right has a not bad DP cost for spells.

MDC

[ToM]

Some simple ways to improve the Ranger...

1) Switch him to Mentalism instead of Channeling. This will give him access to heavier armors, and more useful open/closed lists.
2) Switch weapon costs and weapon profession bonuses with those of the Paladin, or Armsmaster. You may also want to switch Armor and Body Developement costs/profession bonuses as well.
3) Strip away Natural Summons list and let him choose another base list from either Armsmaster base or Monk base.