Topic: question about crit result and twf

[The Dwarf]

Hi first post
I have a few question and I was wondering if someone could help

1) with a must parry and a no parry result can you still attack? if yes do you take the -75 modification to attack?
the problem is that the stun result say "you can't attack" but the other two does not have that line in their description

2)with a must parry result MUST you parry? I mean you have to declare a +0 ob attack (let's say a full melee) and if you want to move or manouver you have to reduce your attack (say I full melee at 60%) and use the rest of the round to act ( following the example I move at 40% bmr or roll a static manouver at 40% with and additional -75)?

3) in the warrior class description it say thet can have any one non restricted combat manouvers and set it to everyman; it means that i can choose 1 combat manouver to everyman or that all the non restricted combat manouver are set to everyman?

4) regarding two weapon fight manouver can both attacks be made in the same phase or should they be in different phases?

thanks

[runequester]

Not an ICE guy, but let me give it a shot. Im sure Rasyr or others will chime in soon

1) with a must parry and a no parry result can you still attack? if yes do you take the -75 modification to attack?
the problem is that the stun result say "you can't attack" but the other two does not have that line in their description

Almost all the time "no parry" will be accompanied by a stun, so its academic.
"Must parry" I believe you can attack, but at OB 0

2)with a must parry result MUST you parry? I mean you have to declare a +0 ob attack (let's say a full melee) and if you want to move or manouver you have to reduce your attack (say I full melee at 60%) and use the rest of the round to act ( following the example I move at 40% bmr or roll a static manouver at 40% with and additional -75)?

We run it that way. The character is forced on the defensive by the near-decapitation or whatnot

3) in the warrior class description it say thet can have any one non restricted combat manouvers and set it to everyman; it means that i can choose 1 combat manouver to everyman or that all the non restricted combat manouver are set to everyman?

Just one. His "trick of the trade" if you will

4) regarding two weapon fight manouver can both attacks be made in the same phase or should they be in different phases?

I think it can be either. Whichever you prefer

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hi first post
I have a few question and I was wondering if someone could help

Welcome to the forums.

1) with a must parry and a no parry result can you still attack? if yes do you take the -75 modification to attack?
the problem is that the stun result say "you can't attack" but the other two does not have that line in their description

This is answered using the 5801 Arms Law (this was not as complete as some other versions, I think, so I will elaborate a bit as well)....

The stun result says that the target may parry sing 50% of his OB. He is NOT allowed to attack. Other actions (than attack/parry) may be performed

The "no parry" result, IIRC, only appears in conjunction with a stun result. It gives a -75 modifier to actions other than attacking. This -75 overrules the -50 from the stun (they are NOT combined). As stated, I don't think it appears on its own, but if it does, this never allows for an attack.

The "must parry" result. The default is that you must parry using 50% of your OB (there could be additional modifiers as well). Instead of parrying, other actions may be performed at a -25.

In all three of the above conditions, there is no attacks allowed. This means that the normal +0 attack that is made with a full parry is not made due these being the results of criticals.

2)with a must parry result MUST you parry? I mean you have to declare a +0 ob attack (let's say a full melee) and if you want to move or manouver you have to reduce your attack (say I full melee at 60%) and use the rest of the round to act ( following the example I move at 40% bmr or roll a static manouver at 40% with and additional -75)?

See above...

3) in the warrior class description it say thet can have any one non restricted combat manouvers and set it to everyman; it means that i can choose 1 combat manouver to everyman or that all the non restricted combat manouver are set to everyman?

It means that you can reset the classification of any one combat maneuver from normal to everyman, and that you cannot select one that is classes as Restricted.

4) regarding two weapon fight manouver can both attacks be made in the same phase or should they be in different phases?

Either way. The overall percentage of activity for all three phases may not exceed 100%.

[pastaav]

The "must parry" result. The default is that you must parry using 50% of your OB (there could be additional modifiers as well). Instead of parrying, other actions may be performed at a -25.

Do you have a reference for this ruling?

From my point of view the limitation does not make much sense...to devote 50% of your OB to DB is pretty much a required tactic if you want avoid combat to become a initiative death race.

I have always ruled that "Must Parry" mean you must parry 100% of your OB, but does not get bonus for full parry.

[Arioch]

I have always ruled that "Must Parry" mean you must parry 100% of your OB, but does not get bonus for full parry.

I have always done the same way, too.

BTW, welcome to the forums The Dwarf!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The "must parry" result. The default is that you must parry using 50% of your OB (there could be additional modifiers as well). Instead of parrying, other actions may be performed at a -25.

Do you have a reference for this ruling?

From my point of view the limitation does not make much sense...to devote 50% of your OB to DB is pretty much a required tactic if you want avoid combat to become a initiative death race.

I have always ruled that "Must Parry" mean you must parry 100% of your OB, but does not get bonus for full parry.

Arms Law (1100, and 6502). In 5520 and 5801, they removed the "using 50% of OB max" part of the description, but added in the part with the variable minus (though I am not positive if any was ever given).

I would say that the limit of 50% OB on the "must parry" should be carried through. This is a critical result, this is not a player's choice (well, his choice is to parry using 50% of OB or do something else at -25). It was part of the original rules and should have been carried over for consistency.

[The Dwarf]

thanks to everyone I have (of course) a few more question please be patient

The "must parry" result. The default is that you must parry using 50% of your OB (there could be additional modifiers as well). Instead of parrying, other actions may be performed at a -25.

Do you have a reference for this ruling?

From my point of view the limitation does not make much sense...to devote 50% of your OB to DB is pretty much a required tactic if you want avoid combat to become a initiative death race.

I have always ruled that "Must Parry" mean you must parry 100% of your OB, but does not get bonus for full parry.

Arms Law (1100, and 6502). In 5520 and 5801, they removed the "using 50% of OB max" part of the description, but added in the part with the variable minus (though I am not positive if any was ever given).

I would say that the limit of 50% OB on the "must parry" should be carried through. This is a critical result, this is not a player's choice (well, his choice is to parry using 50% of OB or do something else at -25). It was part of the original rules and should have been carried over for consistency.

If I got this right it means that a "must parry" result is a lighter form of "stun" since you can parry with 50% OB but you get a -25 to action instead of a -50 and attackers don't get the +20 bonus to attack a stunned opponent.
But I can't find now the page but I think that the manual for the RMSS say that a must parry means a -75 to all manouver, which made me think that they decided to skip the "must use an attack to parry" part but pumped up the penalty to a -75.
But I like your suggestion and I think I will stick with that.
And if I am right penalty do not stack but happen in the same round (if I get a "must parry+stun in the round of effect i am obliged to parry, opponent get a +20 on they attack roll and i get the greater of the penalty to roll) am I right?

and now a new question straight from this evening game session: the Unpain I spell (from the paladin base list) it says that caster can take additional 25% hits before being knocked out how does this work exactly?
My players thinks that while the spell is active he has 25% more concussion and use this new total to calculate when he takes penalty for the wound due to concussion hits taken in combat
(in this example let's Gortan the paladin has 50 hits he takes penalty to action after he has taken 13 hits, then 13 hits, then 12, then 12 goes to 0 hits drop to the ground; if he cast the unpain spell he has 63 hits he gets his firs penalty after 16 hits then 16 more then 16 then 15 here he falls down at 0 hits and when the spell is over he finds himself at -13 hits)
I believe that this spell should instead allow you to fight longer but not better (some sort of my faith sustains me but don't make the pain go away spell) so the extra hits should be added only to the last line of hits (in this example if gortan has 50 hits he can take 13 hits, then be at -10 until he takes other 13 hits then -20 till other 12, and here goes the extra hits making the last one a 25 hits before dropping (12 hits +13 from spell).
And the other question is are the 25% more hits calculate on the maximun hits or on the actual hits? (let's say that big G has 40 hits on his total 50 does he get 10 or 13 hits from this spell)?
Since I don't want to be hard on the players especially when a rule is not clear even to me I have adopted a "when things are not clear on a rule try to give the advantage to the players unless it's gamebreaking" policy I have used the paladin version on the rule since both interpretation are both acceptable in the spell description, but I like to know your opinion on that and of course if there is an official ruling on that spell

Thanks again

[pastaav]

and now a new question straight from this evening game session: the Unpain I spell (from the paladin base list) it says that caster can take additional 25% hits before being knocked out how does this work exactly?

I rule that the usual penalty threashold is still there, but that the character can take more concussion hits before going unconscious. The extra 25% are calculated from max hits so a character with 100 concussion hits would pass out at -25 concussion hits.

[pastaav]

Arms Law (1100, and 6502). In 5520 and 5801, they removed the "using 50% of OB max" part of the description, but added in the part with the variable minus (though I am not positive if any was ever given).

Ummm...sounds to me like "using 50% of OB max" most likely was removed because the rule does not make sense in the first place.

If I use a offensive weapon like a two handed weapons I am limited to at most 50% parry. I think most people will agree with me that this is pretty serious limitation. Using 50% of the OB to attack is not any real defensive stance in the standard meaning of the words defensive stance. I thus have great problems to see how "using 50% of OB max" could map well to the phrase "must parry".

Time to add another rule to the list of house rules...

[Arioch]

and now a new question straight from this evening game session: the Unpain I spell (from the paladin base list) it says that caster can take additional 25% hits before being knocked out how does this work exactly?
My players thinks that while the spell is active he has 25% more concussion and use this new total to calculate when he takes penalty for the wound due to concussion hits taken in combat
(in this example let's Gortan the paladin has 50 hits he takes penalty to action after he has taken 13 hits, then 13 hits, then 12, then 12 goes to 0 hits drop to the ground; if he cast the unpain spell he has 63 hits he gets his firs penalty after 16 hits then 16 more then 16 then 15 here he falls down at 0 hits and when the spell is over he finds himself at -13 hits)
I believe that this spell should instead allow you to fight longer but not better (some sort of my faith sustains me but don't make the pain go away spell) so the extra hits should be added only to the last line of hits (in this example if gortan has 50 hits he can take 13 hits, then be at -10 until he takes other 13 hits then -20 till other 12, and here goes the extra hits making the last one a 25 hits before dropping (12 hits +13 from spell).
And the other question is are the 25% more hits calculate on the maximun hits or on the actual hits? (let's say that big G has 40 hits on his total 50 does he get 10 or 13 hits from this spell)?
Since I don't want to be hard on the players especially when a rule is not clear even to me I have adopted a "when things are not clear on a rule try to give the advantage to the players unless it's gamebreaking" policy I have used the paladin version on the rule since both interpretation are both acceptable in the spell description, but I like to know your opinion on that and of course if there is an official ruling on that spell

Thanks again

Pastaav is right: Unpain doesn't raise your HP, nor gives you "temporary" hit points: it just let you stay conscious until you are at -25% of you max HP. IIRC there are specific spells that remove/reduce HP penalties. So in your example the paladin with 50HP can remain conscious until he reaces -13 HP, but normal penalties still apply.

[markc]

 Welcome to the forums.

1) Unpain: I use it like the players do above. Using you example of a PC with 50 hits; before the unpain he would pass out at 0 hits but with the unpainI he would pass out at [50x.25=12.5 {I round to 13 but the book I think says round down} so 12] -12 hits. So he would still fight on after he got struck and reduced to 0 hits or below but would now pass out at -12 hits. They are not temporary hits but a way to reset the pass out point for a PC.
2) Parry with 50% OB; Yes people with 2-H weapons get hosed on this one since they only get 1 point of parry DB for every point of attack OB placed. So in my game if a player has an Ob of 50 and they got that result he would have an parry DB of [50/2=25; 25/2= 12.5 {I like to get the player the advantage here but I think the book again says round down}= 12] 12 points.
 2a) IMO when you are stunned and must parry you are acting on instinct that is why the 50% OB and the minus for other actions.
 2b) 2-H weapons get a penalty to parry because they are so unwieldy to deflect in coming attacks. I agree that part of the OB/DB split is not related to just moving your weapon in a defensive manner but also foot work, obstructions and objects in the area. But having said that I do feel that the penalty is justified. There are also some debates on this topic you might want to look up by a search.

3) If the PC gets a stun and must parry effect in the same round you do both effects. 

House rule:
1) In your question above about modifying a skill to Occ. or Everyman. Many games allow you to modify a Res. skill to normal. This is not an offical rule but one that I think many groups use.

 Note: The house rule above can be abused by PC's and NPC's both. Most players will opt for the lesser result as NPC's with killer Res. skills changed to normal can be very deadly.

 Welcome to the forums again
MDC

[The Dwarf]

Ok... so for the unpain spell I can fight until -25% hits and I stay at -30 penalty... next time I'll have a very sorry paladin *evil smile*
Obvious follow up question: does the self-controll:frenzy work the same way?

Now about 2h-weapon... i know that generally they tend to be unwieldy but game-balance-wise I found that the extra damage does not compensate for the parry reduction and the absence of a shield... and by reading a few articles on the web i got the idea that those are far less difficult to manouver than what is commonly thought.
Using the standar rules I found that the only efficent use for a 2h weap. is to frenzy ant always attack in the snap phase in a sort of "smash and pray attack" if I hit you you are pulverized if I miss you your nex crit will probably behead me.

I am thinking to use the following house rule:
weapon in the 2h category no longer have the 50% ob to db max limitation against 1h weapon.
Weapon in the polearm category still get them since I tend to allow the second line attack and I also give them a reach attack (for combat I use a 5 foot per exhagon map and I allow polearms to strike from 10 to 15 feet since that's their intended use (or at least the idea I have for it) this however make them clumsy weapon so the max 50% parry rules still apply here (but not in polearm vs polearm combat of course)
I'd like to hear your opinon on that thanks.

And I want to thank you all for being so fast and kind to answer me

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Official Response

Unpain - Target does not get extra hits. Target may take more damage before going unconscious. In your example, the target had 100 hits. He would normally go unconscious at 0 hits. Using Unpain I, he can go to -25 hits before he is unconscious. Unpain does NOT affect any mods due to amount of damage taken.

Stun and must parry at same time - "must parry" is a combat condition just as is stun, "stunned, no parry" (which is what the "no parry" actually is), down, and out. When a character has been hit and received multiple rounds worth of these conditions, they are not applied at the same time. They run cosecutively, not concurrently, and from worst to least worst.

Therefore, if a character receives 1 round of stun and 1 round of "must Parry" then he is essentially stunned the next round and then must parry the round after that.

The confusion regarding the "no parry" is because it used to be "stunned, no parry", which is a separate combat condition than "stunned". In the RMSS/FRP criticals, I don't think that you will find the "no parry" symbol without it being next to a "stunned" symbol.

[Arioch]

Ok... so for the unpain spell I can fight until -25% hits and I stay at -30 penalty... next time I'll have a very sorry paladin *evil smile*
Obvious follow up question: does the self-controll:frenzy work the same way?

Yes, allows you to fight until you reach -100% HP (and usually die for "massive shock").