Author Topic: History of Ulor  (Read 14716 times)

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Offline Walt

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History of Ulor
« on: October 06, 2008, 08:56:39 AM »
I knew there was once a thread about Ulor, but I can?t find it any more so I placed a new one.
Thinking of all the actual topics like books, playerguides etc I would like to hear some opinions about the time between 3910 - 6010 second age. Over 2000 years where Jaiman is dominated by the 6 kingdoms in central and easter Jaiman and the Lord of Ulor in the west.
Anybody an idea how could have looked like the trade relations between Ly-Aran and U-Lyshak or Xa?ar and Saralis? Would have Lorgalis stopped all trade by ship through the Bay of Ulor, promoting Norek next to Lethys to one of the most important trading cities? Did he participate, was there maybe an Ulor trading company? Did he fortifiy the borders, shooting all trespassers? Any opinion?

Offline munchy

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 03:59:58 PM »
I think this one is difficult to answer as it depends a bit on how your have your Shadow World set. My guess is that there is definitely trade between Ulor and its neighbours but I don't think that there is something like the Ulor trading company with embassy-like outposts. I see Lorgalis to some extent as a Sauron of mostly the second age if you consider his activity as the white magician.
In my opinion he is probably behind some pirates in the waters around Jaiman hindering trade and taking his fair share out of it.
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Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 12:32:12 AM »
I think this one is difficult to answer as it depends a bit on how your have your Shadow World set.

That?s the reason why I would like to hear different opinions. For me it even works the other way round: out of the potential history I develop my setting. So it?s a feasible story.
For example if Ulor did cut of in this time all the sea trade routes into the bay of Ulor, Norek would have been on of the major trade towns in this time, more important for example than Lethys.
The whole trade of Saralis, U-Lyshak and most of the trade of Zor (before it?s destruction) would have gone through Cynar and Norek. And their would have been a big rivalry between Norek and Lethys.
If Lorgalis didn?t cut of the trade routes, the picture is different.

I myself for sure would have tried to participate on the trade, raising taxes. But I?m wondering what over concepts are around...

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 09:25:40 AM »
As always Gents, my two bits. If you don't like Terry's time line, just switch up the names and faces to suit. - Far from a complete list and very long.


The whole trade of Saralis, U-Lyshak and most of the trade of Zor (before it?s destruction) would have gone through Cynar and Norek. And their would have been a big rivalry between Norek and Lethys.

Not necessarily Walt. Zor had some low lands along the the inland seas, there are also two large arteries from L'kyran (lower inland sea) to the Bay of Ulor. When Zor was a power they could have very easily taken the inland seas to Lu'nak, Saralis, even to Rhakhaan and U-Lyshak. By taking the arteries the inland kingdom's had a much faster route to the outside of the west side if Jaiman. In the day and age of Rhakhaan ruling a huge portion of Jaiman, they would still be using those inland sea routes. As my father said to me my entire life, a straight line is faster. I also think it would be cheaper and offer less danger. Sure there are inland waterway pirates, but not near as many as bandits. Also, as great as the old highways may be, they lack a military presence in a number of areas making merchants a fat target. At least on the water ways, you cut that target in half, and cut the travel down by a 1/4.

So what do you do now that you have established trade on the inside coast of Saralis, you make deals with the Warlords and Jiax, The King of Saral. Which Rhakhaan would do. Trade is a must, by both land and sea, or Jaix and the Warlords can't pay off their loans, can't make further loans, can't build fortifications, pay builders, stonemasons, smiths, buy horses, pay soldiers, people to cloth the soldiers, food, cattle, gardens and peasants, cart builders... holy crap I can go on for a while.

So all of these power players are bolstering their defences and coffers by trade, raiding, conquest and expansion of farming lands, lumbering and building ships, river boats, fishing vessels. They need people, possibly offer land to those willing to swear an oath to help and not steal away profit. The honour of these warlords may be suspect, but I am thinking that the self styled King Jaix is playing nice. He would fortify everything within 100 miles and run skeleton units, bolstering his soldiers with mercenaries and local militias. Those militias may not have a choice in this. He may be forced to accept Rhakhaan forces, and once in, they will never leave. While he builds his strength up he will be sending negotiators to every warlord, but only offering real deals to those that can help him. Rhakhaan will be doing the same thing, Jaix will be looking to gain time out of these negotiation, while Rhakhaan will be looking for remote powers to build on. If Rhakhaan can get a warlord or two to work with Jaix, then it serves the Empires interests. If they can build a contingency plan in case Jaix crashes, then they will float between who they feel is the better option.

So now Jaix will work his serfs to the bone, claim and sell as much produce, fish/sea creatures, minerals as he can. He will need trading companies to take these products and he will have to sell at a smaller margin since his people may not own enough ships.

To encourage trade, he may give shipping companies a lease that lets them bypass certain taxes and tariffs. At this point Warlords will want a bit of his pie. They will start to in-fight, raids against mines, taking produce trains, Money will be a target, so the lock boxes that are being transported by other soldiers. Now there is corruption...

The Smart Warlords will probably sign on with Jaix, gaining a title of Duke. With Rhakaan backing them, there would be a sense of legitimacy to the title and the lands held  by the warlord. These new Dukes may even ask for advisers, who will play a balancing act across the country trying to keep things stable while ensuring Rhakhaans interests.

What about the monsters, lugroki, garks and, add a dozen cults. Warlords sometime make friends with the wrong sort of Mages, sometimes with forces they really don't understand. Now a freshly minted Duke has a problem with one of his former allies. A necromancer or even Litch, or just a real mean SOB of a mage makes trouble, angry that he didn't get what was ?promised?.

Raiders from all sides, dip into profits, as merchants are forced to take more dangerous ways and some just don't bother. So the raiders have to be dealt with.

Lets not forget about the new Duke playing his own games, trying to undermine the King so that he can step in and become king. Now you have a strange tension between all the powers, yet they will trade and smile at each other because they need each other.

Rhakhaan will offer less tax on merchants going to Saralis, ship captains pay half the docking toll. Maybe a ministry will offer funds for merchants to go to Saralis. New roads will be built, fortifications expanded and new structures planned. Promises of land on this new frontier. One day Jaix is King the next he is a figure head for the Emperor.

I would say that with Rhakhaan's help, Saralis will see an unprecedented growth. Even if people don't feel safe they will go there, hoping to make more money on the first wave work. Every copper that Rhakhaan offers comes with a string.

You may even see war ships in the bay of Ulor, making a clear presence to discourage pirates.

Although this may seem like an annoyance for Rhakhaan, it just means Rhakhaan doesn't have to bare the brunt of the work. They can offer skilled craftsmen, resources, soldiers, training for soldiers, administrators and teachers.  Rhakhaan may even provide a spy network, which will of course keep as much an eye on Jaix as the realm.

As for outside traders, I don't think Ulor wants the attention just yet. In the past Ulor would have taken what they want or charged a hefty fee to travel their water ways. Yet who is to say that Ulor didn't just let things happen, once he takes over Jaiman, he will need these traders as much as the current leaders do.

Now we have people creating hard lines for borders, unknown powers will look for ways to gain from all this sudden organization and order. Minor players could become major ones with a clever deal or betrayal.

That is just the beginning dood. What about the Lords from Rhakhaan that move the Saralis and demand land and rights? Or the churches, with the Church of Orhan demand entry to these new lands? Those cults are dug in deep, who will remove them? A local lord wants to spy on another, who will do that dirty work. A Duke kidnaps another Lords wife and the Lord wants her back ? alive and healthy... Merchants need guards. Forts want mercenaries. Sea Captains need bodies to help fend off pirates. 

Of course, everything will have a string attached, and each string will lead back to the Emperor.
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 01:01:12 PM »
Hi Elric,

I only scanned briefly over your post, but most interesting. I myself I didn?t integrate already Rhakhaan into my thoughts.
But let?s take a step back. 3833 SE Lorgalis conquers Xa?ae, controlling the complete Bay of Ulor. Because he still want?s to move into Saralis and U-Lyshak, he will stop the sea trade to weaken both further.
Now looking at the map and keeping in my mind what you pointed out (straight line is faster, waterway trade) most of the intercontinental trade to Emer (Danarchis, Eidolone, Kaitaine) will run over Cynar and Norek.
I assumed that the most stuff of Saralis will be shipped by coastal routes to Cynar, than by land to Norek (so no exposure to Ulor pirates) and I?m not sure if Zor would have used the north-south highweays to Lethys or the route Lakyran, O`Bahnti, Cynar (downriver, easy), Norek and away to Emer (or other places).
By the way, this was the "golden time" of the Jaimeri artifacts, everbody was in love and peace with each other. WOuld you assume the U-Lyshak used it?s Duchy Plasidar to hinder the trade traffic of Lethys? Or would be this already work against the 6 kingdoms harmony feeling?

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 02:17:21 PM »
WOuld you assume the U-Lyshak used it?s Duchy Plasidar to hinder the trade traffic of Lethys? Or would be this already work against the 6 kingdoms harmony feeling?

Call it a "Security Tax" a couple of copper or even a Silver to travel the lands. Why? Because I have to keep those roads in good condition, my soldiers are more active and I have to have more because of length of the road. Not ever Duke might do it, but those that think in terms on expense,  would do it, Yes. Absolutely. I don't think the duchy would have hindered so much as prospered due to it.

Funny, I would have never put the Word Love into the mix when the kingdom's had the crowns on their collective heads. Most wanted to expand, make money and be richer. I think they all played their little games.

Norek is an interesting place. I would guess that almost 30% of all trade went through Norek, even back in that time period. The city is just to perfectly placed. If you are coming in from the West you would go directly to a community along the west side of Jaiman, and not travel all the way down to Norek. Yet if coming from the South, it was Norek.

As strange as this sounds, trade happens. lorgalis may hold up trade for a while, but he will force trade with is domains, and lock the other out, at least try to. Traders always find a way. Trade may slow down but untill it is not worth anything to do, trade will continue. And as juicy powerful as Lorgalis may be, he and his troops can't be everywhere at once. The bay is a big place and ships are small.
And... smuggling is easy to setup. So a city is blocked off, but smugglers still get things through. Lorgalis will still have soldiers willing to accept bribes and business will continue.. just a bit slower and they may not have as many exotic items.

Tanara has a bad south eastern route by water so it had to be by land. But there are 2 or 3 big highways that run through the mountains. Not in the best shape now.

Also, 3000 years ago there were probably dozens of secondary roads, sub region roads, community roads and more. Travel was also probably freer because of the agreements of the Kingdom's, and the roads. Also keep in mind that there are other land masses not all that far away. Mulira on Jaimans West side and to the east is Kelestia. Emer may not have been on some cities Radar. BUT if you wanted goods from Kelestria and you lived on he west side then you went to Norek or  and vice versa.

 ;D
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
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I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 02:42:39 PM »
Way off topic - I apologize.

Walt, do you use Weapon/Skill Specializations?
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2008, 01:00:07 AM »
I started RM in the Loremaster setting 1988, and since then I?m using RM2 (with many parts of all the funny Companions). I think Weapon/Skill Spec is of RMFRP?
Still I changed a lot: Initative System is based on total Quick Bonus to integrate the race, my players are learning weapon categories instead of single weapons like in the original RM2. And the mages in my campaign can do a lot more (influenced by Harnmaster), even if it mostly kills them.

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2008, 09:46:59 AM »
I thought Specializations have been around for some time.

Initiative, we did something similar. D20 +QU bonus +Racial Bonus.
The Racial Bonus is usually between -5 to +3

Learning Weapon categories is an interesting approach.
We went to a home spun version. When I started Sabre in Gung Fu, I discovered short sword, sabre and heavy sword where pretty much all the same technique. Then after years of reading that the European Long sword and two handed technique was similar (there is of course a difference between 1 and 2 handed technique). I broke the weapons down into further groups.

Large blades - Short sword, Broad sword, Long Sword, sabre, falchion etc.
Two Handers (blades) - Long sword, two handed swords
Short Blades - Some short swords, long knives (up to 1foot), knives (pearing and bone)

I revamped the martial arts and weapon systems as well.

Bloody mages! They have it to easy! I think I have Harnmaster somewhere in my hoard. I should look into it.
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2008, 11:15:21 AM »
Bloody mages! They have it to easy! I think I have Harnmaster somewhere in my hoard. I should look into it.

More and more of topic...
They have the potential to do an Earthquake even at First Level. But may players reaised they shoudn?t do it. Basically they can do anything, but it?s higly unscure. For example, if a Lv 1 Mage with 3 PP wants to cast a Lv 50 Spell, no worries, go for it - only use your live essaence (Constitution) and let?s check over what ever roll how much PP you get (could be something like a ratio of 5:1 (Con:PP). So you are dead, I?m sorry.
I also use the psychological factor. If there are some fumbles in a row I increase slowly the fumble range. Spiral effect. For sure without telling the Player. One character even got a nervous breakdown and went in Lv 11 nearly back to schol because he became totally frustrated.
So even when the mages can achieve a lot in my games, they are quite touchy to try it. Because magic must be, at least in my believe, mighty, dangerous and uncertain, nothing to play with.

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2008, 12:31:36 PM »
I think you are about the 7th person to tell me something about Harn. Very different. Harn is not a Magic heavy world? Or is it raw to  spell casters, able to hurt them as they funnel the power out into a spell.

As you may have noted, my games tend to be magic heavy. I am into the glowing swords, magic armour, the millions of minor magical items, the grim warriors, angelic Paladins and wonderfully androgynous elves. 

I read a novel years ago and decided that I would monitor my spell users in very specific ways. Mainly, after a large battle, if they use 30% of their PP once the adrenalin runs out they feel sick and spent. It takes at least one good night of rest... MIN of 8 hours. At 50% they start to feel sick, adrenalin or not, but can function. Once they stop and the adrenalin leaves they may collapse, depending upon a Static roll with their Con bonus x3. If not they need to sleep, up to 12 hours. And so on.

If they push on and on I will make them roll for Burn Out. I will have the player roll D20 and and that is how many days they are powerless. Of they roll a 1 then no effect and they are normal, if they roll a 20 they are damaged and will need help to regain their magic. They are incapable of storing PP and can not cast spells.

I do this sort of process a few different ways. In all my years of gaming, I have had one mage loss their power for every and ever. He became a Fighter, and developed this weird Zen Warrior Poet thing. Increadably educated character with a sword, eventually became a Warrior Monk. How can you go wrong  8)
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2008, 12:56:03 PM »
As you may have noted, my games tend to be magic heavy. I am into the glowing swords, magic armour, the millions of minor magical items, the grim warriors, angelic Paladins and wonderfully androgynous elves. 

Okay, on this I?m different. Not to much of magic or even bonus items around. We are playing dark fantasy, even if the PCs are after many years real time formidable, it?s all about blood and dirt, betrayals and politics, motivations, nobody is ever sure is he?s on the right side, whatever the right side would be, or your group partner o your side.
It?s about an embittered Animist, who failed to save his great love, killed by Nitire, minion of Lorgalis, to give him a warning (Nitire or Thev O Erlin Ni-the greatest NPC is so far found in any supplement), lost his faith in Iloura, teared apart in between earth magic and the sense for Iloura, stumbling around with lost hope and dreams and faith.
It?s about an arrogant Firemage, whose master was killed by some evil adventurers, chased through Jaiman by a fire demon of whom he doesn?t know if he wants him good or bad.
About a young thief, who got all times beaten up by another PC because of his low birth, who at the end grapped eagerly for some power, given by Klysus, the Lord of Death, at the last possible moment refusing the evil way, trying to get the absolution of Eissa, being no shunned by both the gods of death, from Charon and Orhan (hopefully this guy detects at some point in the future the fabolous world of the unlife!)
A brutal, unscupolous Duranaki, becoming after a near death experience now the most glorious of the pack...a young Loremaster, slowly discovering the incompetence of his order...a fighter, straight forward, trying to back up his prince...and incompetent prince Kier, having no idea what to do to get back his kingdom, but looking good and handsome at it.

Offline DonMoody

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2008, 01:21:05 PM »
They have the potential to do an Earthquake even at First Level. ... For example, if a Lv 1 Mage with 3 PP wants to cast a Lv 50 Spell, no worries, go for it - ...

I thought at first level a character could not know a 50th level spell.

How does that happen?

DonMoody

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2008, 02:05:54 PM »
Sounds gritty!

I miss parties like that. My current team are boy scouts... one of my players is one of the nicest human beings I have ever met. Some days it makes me sick how much of a nice guy he is.. now that I think about I should go and beat the crap out of him after work.

My son is a new player, this is his first actual game and he has only been playing for a few months. Fighter/mentalist. Brutal character... and I wanted him to go to Warrior Monk...

I have a floater that travels a lot, he plays a thief. But he ran into some marital troubles... we don't ask

Monk, happy to be alive and looking to expand his horizons and explore.

This party is not so much into gritt. They make some of the dumbest decisions I have ever had... once I stop laughing I tend to start up again for no reason.
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2008, 02:29:30 PM »
Sounds like a least you have enough fun!

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 02:39:00 PM »
There are times I leave the game, my stomic hurt from laughing, other times I have had to walk away from the table was stunned by human stupidity.

That should be a 6th level Mentalist spell: Human Stupidity: decreases the Reasoning and Memory stats to 20 - Good luck
I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2008, 01:33:08 AM »
Yesterday I happened to have once more a discussion with some colleagues, players, strategy games and roleplay, but not accustomed to SW about the situation 3750 till ~4000 something.
The reactions were like
- block trade at the mouth of the Bay of Ulor, weaken the West coast of Jaiman
- after the rise of the 6 kingdoms: check out what can be done, magically, spies, whatever
- if this doesn?t work: encircle all 6 kingdoms (what?s not possible)
- undermine them (what happened with the Priests)

Offline Elrik

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2008, 02:30:23 AM »
6 ships could easily close off the Bay of Ulor - but there is still a huge amount of surface area outside the Bay, that would be hard to monitor by ship. Watch towers would need an active force to protect from pirates, raiders, highwaymen, thugs and aggressive elves from taking them.

Spies or snitches would be more reasonable. A magical messaging system would make sense. Magically monitoring the coast would take a great deal of tools that probably don't exist, or would take such a massive effort (skills) to build them that it would be improbably. On top of that you would need to train the staff, they would probably need some essence ability, and then you suddenly have those essence trained people monitoring the coast constantly. I don't think Magical radar that targets, locks on and then closely monitors the ships, vessels, troop movements of the enemy exists at the numbers that Lorgalis needs.

But honestly, trade will find away. It just gets cut back. As long as people have a need and are willing to pay, there will be people willing to take that risk. Over the long haul, areas that are not given a chance to grow food will depopulate quickly, areas that have become a war zone will depopulate, and after a while you get this glut of people behind the nearest friendly line. So the people in regions that can leave will, leaving the empty towns and villages at the mercy of the invading soldiers. But, those soldiers need the farmers and craftsmen, so they will do their best to keep people in the towns and villages. So some trade will have to happen, but in a very controlled manner. The trade will flourish behind friendly lines and the trails to those areas may be heavily guarded by friendly forces to ensure Gold gets "home". I  guess you have this rift, where very little is happening, then a boarder along that rift where there is all sorts of activity, and the invaders may have to ship everything in.

At long as there is a Need, and gold, there will be a merchant with a price.

At least it is the start of a Theory =-)



I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law
That wizardry's my trade and I was born to wade through gore
I just want to be a lover, not a red-eyed screaming ghoul
I wish it'd picked another to be it's killing tool

Offline Walt

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2008, 03:07:56 AM »
But honestly, trade will find away.

With this I?m completly d?accord. But to start a theory about history in the time 3833 + it?s easier to first think about one side, in this case Lorgalis. I know that you are a fast thinker, trying already to adress many different topics. But let?s first stay by the rule instead already discussing the expetions. Only to get a feeling about the situation.
39833 SE Lorgalis held both, Ly-Aran and Xa?ar in his hands, with island of Ulor dominating the entrance/exit of the Bay of Ulor. Planning to attack Saralis and U-Lyshak. And now, next to all the other things to discuss, would he have an interest in cutting of the sea-trade of U-Lyshak and Saralis? I think he would. And than the next questions is, does he have the ressources?
If I take your statement that you would think 6 ships are enough (honestly, I have now idea about ships, but yeah, this figure sounds reasonable.) than I?m sure he has so many resources and did it. I even would think if he needs 20 ships (and this probably would be enough to close the entrance to the bay) than he did it.
So, and then we can discuss what happened because of this:
- the mayor trade routes for far trade changed, promoting Norek
- their would have been coastal trade between Saralis and U-Lyshak. I would assume that Lorgalis at least tried to disrupt it sometimes. Generating the idea that most of the watchtowers of U-Lyshak would have also a few warships attached (who had the best skills to build them? Was this U-Lyshak with some benefits of Remiraith?)
- for sure there would have been smugglers (-> a new book idea about the brave royal saralis or U-Lyshak smuggler)


Over the long haul, areas that are not given a chance to grow food will depopulate quickly, areas that have become a war zone will depopulate, and after a while you get this glut of people behind the nearest friendly line. So the people in regions that can leave will, leaving the empty towns and villages at the mercy of the invading soldiers. But, those soldiers need the farmers and craftsmen, so they will do their best to keep people in the towns and villages. So some trade will have to happen, but in a very controlled manner. The trade will flourish behind friendly lines and the trails to those areas may be heavily guarded by friendly forces to ensure Gold gets "home". I  guess you have this rift, where very little is happening, then a boarder along that rift where there is all sorts of activity, and the invaders may have to ship everything in.

I agree, I agree, I agree. But it doesn?t help me. At least not at this one facet of history between 3833 and 3910.
And the spy discussion also has big potential!

Offline thrud

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Re: History of Ulor
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2008, 04:58:16 AM »
Hearing your stories about your parties I chuckle, thinking about our new group. I almost feel sorry for the GM...
It's a kick a*s group but it won't be easy keeping it in line. *lol*