Topic: edged weapons

[Allen]

I've been putting a lot of time and effort into my 'house rules' for my variation of SM2/CS for a game I hope to run in the near future. along with everything else, the armor, the firearms, etc., I'm trying to figure out what to do for some edged weapons.
Now, what I'm doing is trying to come up with the right charts for everything from a pocket knife to a k-bar fighting knife to a katana.
Taking a page from CP2020, I want to have monoblades, ungodly sharp but very fragile. Not to mention a slew of variations from polymer to ceramic to ye old high carbon steel. trying to get a feel for what kind of bonuses to give for what circumstance. Or penalties for that matter.
So... with that in mind, I'd love to hear some ideas or suggestions.
what do ya'll use in your house rules?

many thanks once again,
Allen

[Marc R]

The utility blades from "Hammer's Slammers"

Crushed steel (Graviticly crushed into the tigtest molecular form) neigh unbreakable.

The edge was small scale saw teeth, with the edges of the saw teeth monomolecular edges.

Lovely weapon, useful utility blade/prybar. . . .can be used to whittle steel. . .

[Allen]

oooo....
where is this book?!

[croakerdogboy]

Hmm. To cover the whole spectrum from bronze to say crushed steel, you would almost have to use negatives. Otherwise the bonuses would get ridiculous on the high end. I would probably set the mid range at current high quality steel.

[markc]

 I use the weapon charts from Arms Law in my SM:P/RMSS game. There are charts for material type in the TC and like above I use high steel as the zero point. You can also adjust the varous weapon stats for material besides just the OB. For crit charts you cab use the ones for SM2, RM2/C/X and RMSS/FRP, like distuption, plasma, mental crits etc.

MDC

[Allen]

Thanks all for the suggestions thus far;
here are the different types of materials that I'm going to have in game from lowest to highest:
High Tensil Steel
Polymer Plastics
Monofilament
Ceram-Damascus
Nihon Steel
Deunan
So what I'm think about doing is give the HST a + 5 OB, Ploymers a +10, on up to a +30 for the Deunan. Any thoughts on that?
of course the Deunan is ungodly expensive, to go with that big bonus.

and just to get your creative minds working in advanced, the next item up for discssion is the 'splatter bar'.

Thanks agian everyone,
Allen

[markc]

Allen,
 I think I woud set the polymer plastics at +0 and th high steel at -5, that way the bonuses will not be too high.

 Also upon looking at your new Firearm/Weapon book I did not see specific accuracy bonuses [But I did just a quick relook], but IMO tehy should be about the same magntude as accuracy bonuses for firearms.

 Also IMO some types of materials would not make good melee weapons. Just because they have a better structure does not mean they will hold up as well in combat with repeted srikes on hard armor or parring other weapons. The main one I am thinking of here would be polymer plastics as IMO they would have a very sharp edge but they would chip and shatter more frequently. So you may have a listing of each material and the bonus they apply for melee weapons, thrown weapons and missile weapons.
 From Real Life I am thinking about ceramic bades which are the shapest but once they hit bone or other really solid material they have a good chance of breaking.

 BTW, if I have not said it I do like the new Weapon book. I just wish yiou would have included the SM, RMSS BO, RMSS AL:FA block of stats.

MDC 

[Allen]

ok, here's kinda what I'm thinking right now and would greatly apprecaite input.

Hight Tensil Steel is your average every day stamped blade. nothing special, thus no plus or minus

Polymer blades are great against soft targets, but not against higher AT's; very durable and hard to break, but very hard to keep a sharp edge on. I'm thinking +5 vs AT 1 -7, +0 vs 7-11, -5 vs AT12 -12.  (kinda pulling #'s outta my butt right now too heh)

Monofilament blades are ungodly sharp, will slice thru braided rebar like a lazer thru a stick of room temp butter; but very fragile. Say, +15 vs all AT's, but how to work in how fragile they are?

Ceram-Demascus steel- razor sharp, but again very fagile. +5 vs AT 1-5 (higher?), but would need to up that breakage possibility on this as well.

Nihon Steel +10

Deunan This is the best metal in the game for edged weapons... well for anything metal for that matter. +15 seems to be kinda weak.

Also, I'm thinking of pulling the charts for Katana, To, long swords, knives/daggers, etc. right out of RMC (or where ever), what are thoughts have ye? what have you guys used in your games for bladed weapons?

I'm thinking of adding some other alloys as well...

...looking at your new Firearm/Weapon book I did not see specific accuracy bonuses [But I did just a quick relook], but IMO tehy should be about the same magntude as accuracy bonuses for firearms.


 BTW, if I have not said it I do like the new Weapon book. I just wish yiou would have included the SM, RMSS BO, RMSS AL:FA block of stats.

MDC 

Marc- thanks for the kind words on the Firearms Catalog.
My intent for this was mostly for myself, but then after speaking with you and others it turned into something a little different, so I tried to change the approach. I was trying to make it both GM and player friendly. there's some good, basic info in there that you should be able to easily change/modify for your games. The books I reference could be completely ignored and you can decided to do your own damage however you want. edit the (bleep) outta it! LOL
the way I run it is like this... for each Mark (Mk) for a laser (for example) the weapon has, that's a +5 to hit, so a Mk3 laser= +15, then add in a Mk2 gyrostablizer for another +10 for a total of +25 to hit. let's look at the I do let multiple enchancements stack liek that... believe me, they need all the help they can get. LOL
to give an example, let's take a look at the rarest gun in my game, the GG15... and those that dont havea program will just have to hum along.
ok, the GG15 has (with the stock attached) a recoil compensator for +10, a Mk3 targeting computer/scope for +15, laser system (ranger finder and target desigation) for +10, digital clarification at Mk1 for +5 for a total of +40... then add bonus to hit for shooting from prone position...
see, that's just the way I would run it... how you implement the catalog into your game is all you buddy! I just wanted to throw out some ideas for futuristic firearms. 

[markc]

 For all weapons I use [if they apply]: base material bonus + quality bonus + magical bonus + other bonus= Total bonus. Now this is a mixture of RM rules and varous other game rules I have been playing since 79. The quality bonus it determined by the smith who creates the weapon or the factory that curns them out. Magic bonus is fairly straite forward. The other bonues comes into play for weapon accessories, special mods and the like. 

 For furture weapons and firearms I use: quality bonus + accuracy bonus + accessory bonus= Total Bonus. But there are other things that can reduce the range mod or increase the range mod. It is sort of like the rules in SM:P Blaster Law. BTW, you could also use a material mod here as an option for specific rounds atacking specific materials or AT's.


 A note on material: I do not use a fixed mod for material I use a range that is partly determined by the crafter that is outside the quality mod. This range of mods works great as now you can have a +1 steel shaort sword or a +18 lean short sword. No more of the look a lean weapon it ahs to be better than  my black alloy weapon.

Basic Material Ideas:
 If you have the RMSS TC [I do not know if it is the same a RMFRP: TC] or the RM2 books Elemental Comp or Alchemey Comp, they have some good info on some materials and provides charts. Also I should mention that RMFRP: EC and Shadow World also have some good charts and I think the Shadow World info is a free download in that vault or somewhere else. The RMSS TC and RM2 Alc Comp from my memory describe the difference in the types [amount of carbon and other impurities] that determine a materials properities as well as some info on the fictional ones as well. I also like the RM2 EC as it has different bonuses for there abilities depending on where the material was forged. The EC lists locations such as deep forge, elemental deep forge, etc. 
 Also note remember that materials good for one purpose may not be good for others. Most of the above books say Shalk is a very flexable material that may make +15 bows but is generally useless for other fantasy applications. But maybe in the modern world the "shalk" material is an important layer between other harder materials that prevents the harder more brittle materials from breaking. This idea of composite hard and soft layers is making a huge impact on the area body armor developemtn and sales. The main one that comes to mind is Dragon Scale, in which I saw a upper body Dragon Scale armor laided on a gernade and the armor prevented damage that would have killed a person wearing a suit of armor that just had a ceramic plate in it. I also this this might be the first step in the developement of Kinetic armor like in SM:P, which igmore all firearm crits.
 Also you do not have to have a linear system of materials so you might skip +15 and go to +20 for your highest material but IMo you should try and keep in mind that better materials may come along in the course of the game. especially in a SF game where you can get info ideas of energy stabilised armor, collapsed srtucture armor and other types.

 BTW, Your weapon book reminds me of a game book called Edge of the Sword Volume 1: Modern Firearms but your work is on the other side of the modern time frame.

MDC

[Marc R]

I would consider "Monofilamint" to be a string. . .like a garotte. . .a wire of nano thickness. I guess you could glue or bond it to the edge of a blade. (In my SM games, a monofiliment blade would be a flashlight like handle, hit button, turns on magnetic repeller, which pushes out a tiny ball of iron, that draws out the monowire and holds it in a rigid, blade like orientation. . .you cannot stab with it, but it will cut almost anything. . .it would look vaguely like a lightsaber that didn't actually light up when used.)

With blades that look like blades, Monoblades would be a characteristic, not a material type. They have been sharpened to a molecularly thin edge. Glass BTW, can break or be chipped to a near monomolecular edge, stone age tech obsidian knives are actually far sharper than it is possible to make any steel blade. The problem is that the edge is extremely fragile, and the whole blade is easily broken.

Essentially, any super hard material that could be shaped properly, would be shaped to as sharp an edge as is practical for it's metellurgical characteristics. . .metal blades tend to have a bit of a cleaver edge, rather than being honed to a fine edge, especially in cultures where metallic armor is in heavy use. (Japanese blades did go to a finer edge than western blades) This was due to edge dulling and breakage, if you fight a battle that lasts hours, you prefer a blade that stays sharp longer, rather than one that is super sharp the first 2-3 times you use it, then looses it's ultra fine edge.

So any of the super materials might be presumed to get to finer and finer edges as they go up bonus (which likely explains their improving bonus to some degree). . .like Laen or Hull Metal or Crushed Steel or any other such super material could be considered to have a monomolecular (or close to it) edge.

[markc]

 I just saw a show on the H channel on sharpness and a well crafted katana stays sharp forever. I assume that is if you do not abuse it or intentionally missuse it.

MDC

[Dax]

one that is super sharp the first 2-3 times you use it, then looses it's ultra fine edge.

I just saw a show on the H channel on sharpness and a well crafted katana stays sharp forever. I assume that is if you do not abuse it or intentionally missuse it.

I'm on Lord Miller's "side".
Sharp forever ? Yes, but only if not use against something harder than flesh and clothes.

[markc]

 Actually they were talking about cutting human bones and staying sharp. I also learnd that Cuto Co's serrated edged knives were made for cutting boards as the curved point of the blade is to keep the cutting blad from damage, so the knife cuts from the inside edge.

MDC

[Dax]

Yes, and I have read that in Jo-do training they never use real katana,
because of the chance of damaging - the katana.

I really have no idea ...

[Allen]

Thanks everyone for the input thus far.
what I'm thinking of using right now is using some of the attack tables form RMC/2, and then giving bonuses and restrictions, et al, for the material that the weapon is made of.
i.e. if the PC has a Deunan katana, it will strike using the katana tabel, with a +15 due to materials.

So I guess what I'm asking is... does that make sense to ya'll?
think that'll work out?

~A

[TerryTee]

(I?t late, and reading though my post I?m not sure how much sense this makes, but I?l post it anyway...)

I haven?t played rolemaster in a long time, but as far as I can remember, different weapons have different attack bonuses versus different ATs.
Puling numbers from CharGen (not checking books), a standard katana has
+5 vs AT 1-12, +0 vs AT 13-16, -5 vs AT 17-20
while a bastard sword has
-10 vs AT 1-8, -5 vs AT 9-12,, +0 vs AT 13-16, -5 vs AT 17-20

This is meant to reflect some of the combat abilities of a weapon.
In addition to this, an individual weapon can have other bonuses as mentioned above.

A weapon in a high quality material might still have been relatively poorly made.
I?d say that the material and the craftsmanship together will give an attack bonus for the weapon, and the RM OB vs AT can be used in addition.
The material and the craftsmanship should some how affect each other. A superior crater can make a better weapon in a lower quality material then an average crafter with a high quality weapon.
This will give you a variance in the bonus for Deunan, not only a flat +15.

It could also be fun with some custom fumble table to reflect the properties of the materials, like a high probability of shattering for, or for getting a dull edge and thus a negative OB bonus until fixed (and the AT of the target might be a modifier in the fumble result, so an attack on an AT 20 is much more likely to produce a devastating result).

-Terry

[markc]

 The official rules from RMSS:TC use material weapon bonus+magic bonus = total OB bonus. A lot oof game have house rules that include a quaility bonus or craftman bonus but this is not offical. I do use that rule and I liek it very much.
 Some of the newer books do have a chaart for the katana id they do not then you use the mods given and the chart given as the base for the mods.


 I use the total OB bonus = material bonus + magic bonus + craftsman bonus + weapon mods. I use the RMSS version of Arms Law which I think is close to the RM2 and RMC version. Note that different versions of Arms Law have different numbers so make sure you all yse the same book or PDF to generate all the charts for your group. Yes there were differences in printing of differnt AL's.

MDC 
 

[Emaughan]

Don't just give a bonus to the blades accross the board, but instead adjust the blades effectiveness against various armor class.  A mono filament edged blade vs no armor is not going to be much different than a carbon steel blade.  The mono filament against someone wearing power armor though would have a greater bonus than a steel blade. 

Just my two cents.

[markc]

 IMO also it may have a chance to break the power armor by servering electrical paths and any other mechanizatioin needed for the suit to function.

MDC

[Marc R]

I think a nano blade vs unarmored is going to actually be quite nasty. . . .it takes a much harder swing to sever your arm with a european broadsword than a katana (Since the broadsword is kind of chisel edged). . .I'd assume a monoblade would be quite nasty vs flesh. . .

Also, just because something is super sharp, will not necisarily grant it cleaving ability.

If using a "monowire" sword akin to the one I described above, it would slice through anything not proof to it (usually energy screens, or macromolecular coatings)

A blade, with a monomolecular edge would still widen to a larger cross section, so it wouldn't necissarily lop the arms off of power armor, or carve doors/walls. You'd hit, the mono edge would cut, but then the wider blade behind the edge would hit the edges of that cut. . . either the object would snap along the fracture point you've created, or the blade would jam or bounce/slide away.

So a monoblade might just scratch or score a really hard surface without getting much penetration.