Topic: shield bashing

[markc]

Fenrhyl Wulfson,
 There was a series on the History Channel I think that talked about training people in the art of cinama fighting. Now I know that that is nothing like real sparring but it had some good points.

 Way back when the earth was flat and I was in high school we fought with empty 2 leter bottles. You talk about bruses, welts and read marks it was fairly nasty. I especially remember jabbing with the end into peoples midsection, it was not  apritty sight.

 I still have an old bokken that I sometimes take out an threaten my life with. It is a serous piece of wood and I would not want to be struck by it.
MDC 

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Actually, my arms master is also a specialist of stunts and an actor, but he also has a really good knowledge and ability with european and asian martial arts and has an arms master licence for classic fencing. His assistant is doing a compilation of armed combat ressources on his website : here, in french and other weird languages like auld englishe, latin, plattdeutsh and so on.

We are struggling now to have the discipline recognized at a national level but, as usual in France, a bunch of old men are just preventing this to happen... we'll have to wait for them to die.

Your 2 litres bottle "leisure" was pretty crazy ^^


(don't mess with bokens, I had a finger crushed by one of those things... gosh, the pain! It took 2 months for it to move without hurt... nothing like having the hand struck by a steel sparing sword but, being a practical man, I wear heavy duty gloves when training)

[markc]

Fenrhyl,
 I have on old high school buddy that is trying to get his movie cetifacation for weapon fighting. I do not knwo the technical term for it and I am sure there is one. But he talkes quite a bit about it one you get him started. He has been in a few films the most receint being the old Hulk as an extra, one of the Army reservies in San Francisco.

 I do think I would enjoy a Myth Busters episode in which they tested a ram bash vs a shield bash. Or even a real history show on it. I can only hope as I am not in any way going to test it out in real life.
MDC

[pastaav]

A shield bash is given by a human who as more lever power, uses a tool made for fighting and is actively trying to kill you and is the same weight, or heavier, than  a ram.

I think the main reason these animals are not very dangerous are that the attck goes too low to do lethal injury. The ram attack is massive due to the animal having muscles perfectly suited to do ram attacks, but it quite easy to avoid them hitting vurnerable places since the animals size is limited.

We can compare that with a horse...speak with any people that tend horses and they will confirm that horses never cause leathal damage. On the other hand they can also tell how irritated horses kick holes in solid wooden walls. I have myself seen a horse wagon with a large hole in the wall caused by the horse becoming irritated. It is not lack of physical strengh that makes the horse safe, but rather that an irritated horse have great difficulties to aim their kick in a way that is dangerous for a human.

[markc]

 I knew a guy who had been kicked by a mule in the neather reigons and was in the hosipital for at least 1 month, his son told me it was 2 months but that seams a little to long to me. But then again I was not the one who was kicked.

MDC

[yammahoper]

A shield bash is given by a human who as more lever power, uses a tool made for fighting and is actively trying to kill you and is the same weight, or heavier, than  a ram.

I think the main reason these animals are not very dangerous are that the attck goes too low to do lethal injury. The ram attack is massive due to the animal having muscles perfectly suited to do ram attacks, but it quite easy to avoid them hitting vurnerable places since the animals size is limited.

We can compare that with a horse...speak with any people that tend horses and they will confirm that horses never cause leathal damage. On the other hand they can also tell how irritated horses kick holes in solid wooden walls. I have myself seen a horse wagon with a large hole in the wall caused by the horse becoming irritated. It is not lack of physical strengh that makes the horse safe, but rather that an irritated horse have great difficulties to aim their kick in a way that is dangerous for a human.

Horses can be very lethal.  Cav ruled the battle field for centuries.

http://kdka.com/local/horse.kick.Washington.2.746306.html

lynn

[pastaav]

A shield bash is given by a human who as more lever power, uses a tool made for fighting and is actively trying to kill you and is the same weight, or heavier, than  a ram.

I think the main reason these animals are not very dangerous are that the attck goes too low to do lethal injury. The ram attack is massive due to the animal having muscles perfectly suited to do ram attacks, but it quite easy to avoid them hitting vurnerable places since the animals size is limited.

We can compare that with a horse...speak with any people that tend horses and they will confirm that horses never cause leathal damage. On the other hand they can also tell how irritated horses kick holes in solid wooden walls. I have myself seen a horse wagon with a large hole in the wall caused by the horse becoming irritated. It is not lack of physical strengh that makes the horse safe, but rather that an irritated horse have great difficulties to aim their kick in a way that is dangerous for a human.

Horses can be very lethal.  Cav ruled the battle field for centuries.

http://kdka.com/local/horse.kick.Washington.2.746306.html

lynn

Of course there is always people that are so lazy that they don't avoid walking directly behind the horse and so on, but I think my point still holds. The shield bash is brutal because the human have better options to aim and not because the brute strengh of the attack.

[vieja escuela]

XDDD . it is ...  every body likes wait to the horse to look it better.
My god.
XDDD they are easy to avoid?? and a man, that runs more slowly, whit a shield of 18 pounds and a sword of 4 pounds it is more difficult to avoid?? XDDD. if you (run out?)(FLEE?) of them the bull can (take you)( plunder) you. the loaded man not,  a man with 18 pounds in the left arm it is very difficult  ... ups You are paraplegic?

[yammahoper]

The shield bash is brutal because the human have better options to aim and not because the brute strengh of the attack.

Ok, so would you prefer to be bashed by a shield swung by a 200 lb man, or ran over by a 1400+ lb horse and trampled?

IF a man with a shield was so much more devestating than the horse, armies of history would have been long lines of men with shields bashing away...oh yeah, they USE to be just that, while cav was used to attack exposed flanks or break the line and allow infantry to route the shambled mass.

The horse of the old world was the majestic king of the battle field, not the shield.  The ram/butt/bash table when compared with the trample table certainly agrees with this historical fact.

lynn

[Marc R]

A lot of it also has to do with classes of attacks and general response to armor.

The "Ram/Butt/Bash" table covers everything from punching and kicking to shield bashes, to move throughs (rams) by a variety of attackers (Your 120# ram is using the same table as the 300# linebacker), thrown rocks and other objects. . .crashes into yeilding objects, etc.

You could certainly argue loads of variation in the particulars, but generally speaking a full set of football armor would be quite effective not just against the 300# linebacker, but the goat, the thrown rock, the punch and the kick and the shield bash. . .all could hurt you, but all are protected against similarly. . .so the set up as is seems to be "Good enough" if not perfect.

[Dax]

And now a total different opinion:

First a resume:
Rolemaster doesn't simulate a fight realistic, but the damage with a good realization of offense/defense stance.
One dice roll for 10 seconds of a fight represents more than one swing of the sword. IMHO it even includes pommel attacks, fist strikes, kicks and even shild bashes.
The critical of a "17C" result with a sword may mean a C-Slash, but also a C-Krush. The Crush might be the result of a pommel attack to <insert hit location here> or a fist attack or a kick. The GM doesn't need to call for a roll on a special table, she can just use the result. The GM may even split a critical: A C-Crit may be interpretated as a minor slash (roll A-Crit) and a shild bash (roll B-Krush or D-Unbalancing) etc.

Now to the shild bash: Not only the shild construction (spikes, boss, sharp rim) also the spacial stance of the combatants may have an influence. If in the heat of the fight the combatants come to very close range a shild bash may result in an Unbalancing-Crit, a mere body bash (shild against shild).
___

I wouldn't dare to compare cavalery against shild bash. I believe it is an individuell thing: If there is a man in front of me ramming the rim of his shild into my face ... I would prefer a horse ramming me (a body bash would kick me out of the way). A flat shild bash (body bash) would just kick me over (Unbalancing), but I'm prone and might be killed therefore.

Cavalery ruled because of the momentum, the horse bash might be not that hard, but it could overrun a combat line of men and break it. A horse can easily bash more than one person, a man with a shild not.

...
You could certainly argue loads of variation in the particulars, but generally speaking a full set of football armor would be quite effective not just against the 300# linebacker, but the goat, the thrown rock, the punch and the kick and the shield bash. . .all could hurt you, but all are protected against similarly. . .so the set up as is seems to be "Good enough" if not perfect.

I second this: In my my stick fighting lessons I was surprised that a mere padded shirt effectivly stops the blows of a stick ...

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Cavalery ruled because of the momentum, the horse bash might be not that hard, but it could overrun a combat line of men and break it. A horse can easily bash more than one person, a man with a shild not.

Cavalry is also tightly packed so that first you are thrown to the ground by the horse's body and then you are crushed into the ground by a dozen or so horses (that is, if you survived the spears of the first line and the swords/maces/axes of the following ones).

And as far as padded shirts go, in a padded shirt/chain mail combination, the chainmail is just here to prevent a blade or spear to rip the padding. The blow is actually cushioned by the shirt, not by the metal armour.

[vieja escuela]

look at this and do it with a shield please. it is more easy do it with a big axe . I can not
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=GtQPSKLXwpg&feature=related
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=NGjLGm81tvs
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhTlFXnCYE
this is funny look at this
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=p16u3z3vKzg&feature=related
the maximun of a bull it is much more bigger tham it is in a shield
I know that bull drop jeeps ( the car) you can do it with a shield
Gathered the a book the medicine
The wounds for shaft of bull are in the habit of producing damages so serious that every person who suffers it must be considered to be like polytraumatized.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

So, your point is that a bull does a lot more damage than a shield.

Good, that's exactly what the rules are saying.

Shield bash = medium bash attack

Bull attack = medium horn or Large bash and Large trampling.

Damage wise, the maximum critical a shield may score is Bn, a bull may score a D. I guess it says it all.

I think the combat bull, who is bred for being muscular, heavier and aggressive, should receive a little beef up. I'd give him a huge bash and a x2 to hit points.

[Marc R]

If you consider it this way. . .if joe human is thrown by a storm giant into his friend Jake. . .they take medium ram attacks, if joe were tossed into a wall, he would take a Fall/Crush attack instead.

A medium bash shield attack is the same as having a person tossed into you. Logic and force would dictate that the flying person strike would be worse, but, the flung person is a general attack, while the shield is aimed. . .

Much like the same logic would say that having a 180# human flung into you is worse than having a 180# human bash you with a 5 pound hammer. . . but the hammer is quite likely to inflict a lot more damage, due to the attack being focused on one point, and aimed better.

In the end, you could argue the logic in circles, but the tables are all generic anyway, as detailed as they are. . . . .if you attack someone with a 5" wide, 3' long clever blade, or with a 3" wide 4' long broad blade, or a 2" wide 5' long narrow blade, you could make all sorts of arguments for variations in result. . .but odds are all three will resolve on the Broadsword attack table. (Perhaps with some minor modifiers).

As GM, it's up to us to tweak to the level of details we want, or to generalise to the level of non detail we want to ignore. . .I can't really think of a better table to use for shield bashing than the Ram/Butt/Bash table of the ones offered in Arms Law.

[markc]

 BTW, in the HBO series Rome one of the last couple of episodes had a great example of shield work in fighting. I do not remember the episode but it was the one with Pullo [sp?] not caring what happended to himself and going to court. If you have a chance to see it you will not be dissapointed.

MDC

[vieja escuela]

With regard to this topic to part of not agreeing with the damage. That if that it( allows in several versions of the rolemaster to attack in large with a full shield......Already I do not even think to speak about the huge.

combat compani?n:
Shield Bash: (...). The size of the attack is determined by the size of the shield;
Target = Small, Normal = Medium, Full =Large, and Wall = Huge. All Shield Bash
attacks are made on the Ram/Butt/Bash/ Knockdown table using only half of the
style OB. The attack has a fumble range of 01-05. If the character also has the Shield
Training option, then the full OB may beused with just a -20 modifier (the offhand
penalty) to the style OB.

In the round in which the shield is used to make an attack, it provides no bonus to
DB. A shield may not be used with the Defense Ward option. Shield Bash is also
subject to the off-hand penalty (-20).

It is necessary to bear in mind that the shield is a weapon with the one that is very easy to parry.
It gives +25 to parry ... but to my to deal should lose it on having realized an attack. shield it is better to parry .
I explain: if I have a BO of 80 in shield and parao with 40 and attack with 40 my shield it is very much an efficient more that a dagger to stop this atack of mace. And therefore think that it should preserve +25 to parry no to BD.

[Arioch]

Shield Bash: (...). The size of the attack is determined by the size of the shield;

You could also handle it this way:
The size of the attack is determined by the size of the attacker:
Tiny=Tiny; Small=Small; Medium=Medium; and so on
Depending on the size of the shield attack get a special modification to OB:
Target = -10, Normal = +0, Full =+5, and Wall = +10 (hmmm, not sure, you probably need to charge your enemy to bash it with a wall shield...).
All other considerations from CC remain unchanged.

[vieja escuela]

I do not even agree with that is like an assault of sheep. I continue thinking that an proper table would be more appropriate. One which the shield affects before that in it of ram but which maximum damage could not be compared to that of a heifer of 400 pounds that gives gores of 12 inches of depth.

[Arioch]

Sorry, I'm not sure if I've understood what you said. 
Are you saying that you don't think that the size of the attack should be linked to the size of the attacker?