Author Topic: Making Rolemaster Better!  (Read 21526 times)

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Offline Justin

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2008, 09:51:01 AM »
The only issue I see with 'multi-classing' is that the purpose of a Rolemaster 'profession' is a bit different that what most people think of as the classic 'character class.'  A profession in Rolemaster has sort of dual personality.  One one hand it defines what you do but on the other it defines what you're meant to do.  What I mean is that your profession defines a sort of aptitude in your character.  It defines what they're naturally capable of learning quickly or slowly as defined by interest and genetics.
That's completely right, and a good reason for not including mutli-classing. Completely different concept than what RM has.

However, thanks for jogging my memory on other things which could improve RM. One of the few things I liked about 3E D&D was prestige classes. One of the things I don't like about the proliferation of professions in RM is that you don't seem to ever have to simply bite the bullet and buy expensive skills. You want to play a fighter-type, cool....Only ever going to develop one weapon? Why pick Fighter when you can pick Cavalier. Plan on being a big brute? Why pick Fighter when you can pick Barbarian. Plan on being a crazy fighter? Why pick Fighter when you can pick Bashkar. Want to be a socially adept and have an air of leadership? Why pick Fighter when you can pick Leader.  (This 'problem' is strongest in the Fighter family, weakest in Theif, moderate in the mages.)

What might be in interesting idea is to include these similar professions but in a prestige-like way. It's not so much a change of who you are, as much as an emphasis of strong points. And the requirements should keep people from doing the fighter-mage multi-classing trick. And if someone doesn't want to play it that way, they just ignore the requirements and make them available from the start.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2008, 09:56:29 AM »
I split the last several posts off into a new thread -- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7236.0 -- so that that particular idea could be discussed in more detail without further disrupting the overall purpose of this thread.


Offline RandalThor

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2008, 05:39:21 PM »
The only thing I don't like is that my path is SET IN STONE at 1st level. Don't like that one bit. It is like what my friend said about d20 (not 4e): you have plan out your character to 20th level before you start playing at 1st level! No sir, do not like that one bit.

I do tend to lean towards games that do not have levels/classes these days, but I have all these fond memories of playing RM when I was younger and am just trying to get the two to come together (my old enjoyment and my newer gaming preferences). I will will work on it.

Ooops, almost forgot: I will likely have to stick my ideas under the general "Rolemaster" list heading as I play RMFRP.
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Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2008, 12:38:12 AM »
My view on the subject is this~
Combine the core books into 1 "core book" with a possible exception of Monster n' treasure.Add the treasure to the back section of the book to be included as part of a GM/Campaign section.Thus you'll have the "core book" split into managable sections such as :
Part one ~ Character Law
Part two ~ Spell Law
Part two ~ Arms Law
Part three ~ Campaign Law (including Treasure section).

For professions I'd stay with a Iconic core or use a more generic profession system like what was used in Cyberspace.I liked that system best.

Clean up layout & editing. Improve art especially in a beefed up Monsters manual.I won't suggest going color or the fancy paper route as I hate that about most modern RPGs.Sure the art is cool but it's expensive & I don't want to worry about spills .That's what I love about Palladium Books & the old Cyberspace book.Good clean yet bold B/W art will catch the eye.

Setting-wise I'd vote for Shadowworld for RM as a default setting.Create one big "core setting" book including updated material from the various Master Atlases.Then put out updated worldbooks based on the available SW supplements.Get rid of ALL CG art & go back to quality B/W art.

Unless such changes are made I'll stick with RMC/X for most of my future fantasy gaming. Outside RMC/X I'll most likely only play Cyberspace & SM2 .The only non-ICE games I'll play are RIFTs, Shadowrun,Cyberpunk 2020/3rd ed. ,Twilight 2000/2013 or WW games if those at all.I love ICE games especially RM2/RMC/X & Cyberspace.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2008, 02:47:18 AM »
,Twilight 2000/2013

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC: Is this (2013) out?!? How can I get it?!?
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2008, 03:18:41 AM »
The only thing I don't like is that my path is SET IN STONE at 1st level. Don't like that one bit. It is like what my friend said about d20 (not 4e): you have plan out your character to 20th level before you start playing at 1st level! No sir, do not like that one bit.

RM professions are quite different from d20 ones and, fortunately, you don't have to plan how your character is going to develop in future levels.

I think that Rasyr's idea on how develop professions (on his blog: http://www.wizlair.net/news.php?extend.30) is very interesting and it's a good compromise between professions and professions-less
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline thrud

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2008, 04:04:41 AM »
After reading the last few posts a couple of ideas spring to mind.
Ideas are all well and good but will they improve on RoleMaster or make it a completely different game?
If we want a way to work our way around profession changes and make it available to all I see only one viable route.
1. Start with a "no-profession" profession.
2. Decide on pc's natural aptitudes and inaptitudes, i.e. lower and increase costs to mirror his/her person.
3. Dedide on profession and adjust skillcosts according to the profession. A figher -> Lower first weaponcost 3 steps, magic increase cost 5 step and so on.
4. Adjust skill costs for hobbies/personal interests
5. Use background options to lower skill costs (buy magic...?)

This way it's easy to change professions... just readjust for the new profession.
The question now becomes...
IS THIS ROLEMASTER???
I don't know? I like the professions just the way they are and if a profession change is necessary we just tweek it and make it work.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2008, 03:01:00 PM »
RM professions are quite different from d20 ones and, fortunately, you don't have to plan how your character is going to develop in future levels.

But once you are a fighter.......you are a FIGHTER. Nothing else. That is what I meant. When you sit down and make a character to play in RM, you must decide on the character you are going to have from then on. (Barring character death.)

Thrud: I am looking at something similar to what you mention. As far as "is it Rolemaster?" Well, just like the new D&D, whatever the company that makes the game calls it, is what the game is. If ICE decides to go with a totally new rules set and call it Rolemaster - then it is Rolemaster.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2008, 03:21:46 PM »
The word Profession was really a poor choice for a word.   It's a misnomer in Rolemaster, as are the Profession names themselves as they imply someone's "job".   As many have pointed out a RM "Profession" represents natural aptitudes that are determined at a young age (a nature/nurture combination).    For me it doesn't make sense to be able to change it at any point in your life.

Rather then think of a character as a "Fighter" think of them as "Naturally Athletic" as this is what the underlying system is really representing.   When looked at it that light does it then make sense that later in life the character decides to trade in his Natural Athleticism for a Natural Magical Affinity?

I think that if you want to allow multi-classing this is really best done by using a single profession (No Profession/Laymen)   Switching your 'class' is then a matter of switching the skills that your purchase, and everyone is on the same footing from the start.    A cornerstone of the balance that does exist in RM is the idea of static DP costs for the life of your character.

Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2008, 04:54:02 PM »
,Twilight 2000/2013

TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC: Is this (2013) out?!? How can I get it?!?
It should be out soon.http://www.93gamesstudio.com

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Offline Wōdwulf Seaxaning

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2008, 05:02:19 PM »
The word Profession was really a poor choice for a word.   It's a misnomer in Rolemaster, as are the Profession names themselves as they imply someone's "job".   As many have pointed out a RM "Profession" represents natural aptitudes that are determined at a young age (a nature/nurture combination).    For me it doesn't make sense to be able to change it at any point in your life.

Rather then think of a character as a "Fighter" think of them as "Naturally Athletic" as this is what the underlying system is really representing.   When looked at it that light does it then make sense that later in life the character decides to trade in his Natural Athleticism for a Natural Magical Affinity?

I think that if you want to allow multi-classing this is really best done by using a single profession (No Profession/Laymen)   Switching your 'class' is then a matter of switching the skills that your purchase, and everyone is on the same footing from the start.    A cornerstone of the balance that does exist in RM is the idea of static DP costs for the life of your character.

Then take the Profession/social class system used in Cyberspace & tweak it for RM.The "professions" are more generic yet has favored skills sets to develope easier than others.The adolescents skills is based on social class than class.It makes more sense to me.Then include training packages to specialize & add other options like spell lists depending upon the training of the character.
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Offline thrud

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2008, 02:15:56 AM »
Multiclassing and changing professios really should have it's own thread...
Taking natural aptitudes into consideration taking the mean value from both professions prevent going totally overboard.
Taking the Fighter/Magician as an example. Spell lists would cost 10/* (or 11/* rounding up or down) and this is not cheap.
Going the Paladin/Magician route would be very different -> 2/* (or 3/* rounding up or down), this way the original profession is still VERY important.
I personally like this variant.
Depending on how complex you want to be you can weight the value by allowing the character to become more and more his new preofession as time passes by. 4/1, 2/1, 4/3, 1/1, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 or something...

Please feel free to split this into a multiclassing thread ;)

Offline Arioch

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #72 on: August 17, 2008, 05:24:43 AM »
RM professions are quite different from d20 ones and, fortunately, you don't have to plan how your character is going to develop in future levels.

But once you are a fighter.......you are a FIGHTER. Nothing else. That is what I meant. When you sit down and make a character to play in RM, you must decide on the character you are going to have from then on. (Barring character death.)

Not completely true, you decide which skills will be easy and which hard to develop, in other words what you character's aptitudes are. You can also make a fighter and suddenly decide to develop only your lore and magical skills.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Dax

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #73 on: August 17, 2008, 06:00:27 AM »
I start with another system (not DnD) and I still think in its pattern: So RM professions are character classes for me and sums what is easy to learn for the PC (call it aptitude and is never changed).

If new "professions" are developed from a layman and decrease cost in this category and increase cost in another. These cost changing are done level by level, so to be a real fighter (x steps better in weapons) you need x levels to get there (and another x back to layman and again y to be a better magic user).
Changing profession would be a long way to go ...

Easier just to pay more dev.points for an (for own profession) unusual skill.
There is no real difference between a thief and a figther who concentrates on subterfuge skill (except for the level bonus) - as Arioch just stated.
___

BTW the non-profession start with change of dev.cost would still be RM in my opinion.
But it should be clarified which categories/skills cost could be linked to decrease/increase one another to prevent munchkinism.
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Online rdanhenry

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #74 on: August 19, 2008, 04:30:45 AM »
One comment regarding the "better art" suggestions: While a good piece of cover art can help to get my attention, a lot of interior art is usually going to lower my interest when I look inside. After all, every page of artwork is a page I will be paying for without actual game content. (Likewise, I am not happy to see the gamebook include fiction set in the gameworld, either. I can get mediocre scribblings based on game sessions free on the internet, should I want them. And the setting details can be more efficiently provided in expository form.) I would be happy to see a gamebook with *no* interior art, if it made room for more content. If the game includes exotic content, it might be useful to have some illustrations of specific items/races/whatever special things that are included in the game. If the game is tied to a setting, a map is a good thing. And I recognize that some spots would just have to be empty space without some filler art, so I don't really expect to see a professionally published rule book with no interior illustrations. But since most such art is padding, I am not in favor of placing an emphasis there. Note that I can only speak to my own preferences and from a marketing standpoint, splashing several pages of full color artwork across Rolemaster: The Next Generation may be exactly the right thing to do.

A book of creatures may benefit from illustrations if the creatures illustrated are unique to the setting. However, yet another picture of animated skeletons, winged horses, or stereotyped dwarves does not enhance my imagination of the game world at all.
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Offline Greydragon

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #75 on: August 29, 2008, 07:26:51 PM »
Here?s my brutally honest bottom line (and, as always, IMVHO): we can?t have it both ways.  We can?t ?keep? Rolemastern the way it is and get a much larger fan base.  I just don?t think that fan base exists anymore and that leaves the existence of Rolemaster simply to serve the fans it already had.  And the small number of fans we as players will be able to recruit won?t make much of a dent.  Meanwhile we?re beating our chests saying the other gamers just don?t get it while they?re happily agreeing with us and rolling their d20?s.


Not just for that bit but for the whole post, have an idea point, it is excellently written and argued, and saddly true (I am one of the holdouts ;) )

For me, if you want a game to cater for a new audiance, you need more than just a book, you need the software to make character creation, combat, magic and other maintenance easy, and so little to learn that people can jump in and play quickly.

After all, I haven't the time to learn anything new, so how can I expect others to learn my system of choice, if it will take them more than an hours reading.



One of the things I was thinking about to increase sales would be a disk with several random generators for the GM.  Several come to mind quickly: a library generator (there was one on the web years ago but it had a very limited list of books,) an inn generator, a tavern generator (also done once long ago but it was sort of clunky,) a NPC generator, a general store generator (listing items available in the shop based on the era like in the old Ten Foot Pole.)  Each random generator could have input from the GM as to numbers of books or percent increase or decrease in costs, class of inn (such as a 4 star inn or tavern.) 

There could be a random dungeon generator disk.  This would generate a random floor plan and print out a nice looking map - all important these days is the use of nice graphics in the age of computer gaming.

There could be a random city, town, village and hamlet generator.  Again making a nice graphic map but also a short description of the leader, government, law order, era (bronze, iron, etc.) shops and other points of interest.  There could easily be some minor input from the GM to help define these points.

A combat assistant program would be great and speed up the combat (a major problem with my group, they are all WoW players and like to see the results immediately.)  This could be as simple as a spread sheet that allows the GM to select the weapon and input the total of the roll (rolling is important - randomly generated computer rolls makes folks mad) then output the results of the hit.  If a crit is there it could output the results with the input of the crit roll.  (OK OK I know this would not be a simple spread sheet, it would have to access each weapon but, once it is done it would be very beneficial in shortening the combat time.)

Finally a disk with a good character generator could be introduced.  My favorite was one called RCU by Edward Osrowski.  It really did a good job using many of the companions options to quickly generate NPC's and more controlled PC's for that matter.

Offline Greydragon

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #76 on: August 29, 2008, 07:49:56 PM »
Raysr the scalable spell list on your blog looked very interesting... similar to the effect I now allow for bolt spells to increase damage by a multiple based on a multiple of the spell cost.  With scalable spell lists, the lists could be much smaller... very interesting!

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2008, 10:40:58 AM »
Raysr the scalable spell list on your blog looked very interesting... similar to the effect I now allow for bolt spells to increase damage by a multiple based on a multiple of the spell cost.  With scalable spell lists, the lists could be much smaller... very interesting!

That is the idea. Smaller lists altogether, but still spell lists that allow the grouping of similarly themed spells.

Plus, it allows for inclusion of spells (not cantrips) that do not have/need any scaling options, which is something that the doesn't really work well with the current HARP rules.


Offline yammahoper

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2008, 12:43:26 PM »
How do you improve upon perfection?

Okay, I am only half kidding  :hm:

lynn
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Offline Emaughan

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Re: Making Rolemaster Better!
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2008, 05:58:26 PM »
I agree with yammahoper - don't go changing too much since I think the game is very well done. 
The only areas I see as needing help are:
- Arms law, armor needs to be more protective than it is in the current system.  Combat companion helps and I'm hoping we still may see crit cards.
- The art.  I totally disagree with the "less art is better" poster, and I think more gamers are on this side of the fence.  Good art that is well placed in the book can give a quick visual when trying to find something in the book.  It adds to the imagination IMHO, and if your dealing with PDFs, does not add too much to the cost.  Currently the art is good to so-so (though I really like some of Jennifer Meyer's work).
- I liked many of the ideas in the RM companions, but I did not like how various rules end up spread all over a series of books.  Combat companion, Elemental Companion, and other "focused" companions I believe are the better way to go.  It drove me a bit crazy trying to remember where to find things like a chart for lycanthropy control roles or an alternate way of doing melee rounds.  Do I look in RMC1, 2, 3, 4...?  Keep the suplements on a specific topic.

Love the game and look forward to what's coming down the road.
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