Topic: Super sizing Monks

[Pat]

With the new Armour adjustment system in Martial Law the poor Monk appears to have been relegated from the ranks of a front line fighter to (at best) a secondary support character.

The Monk always had the disadvantage of Chi defence penalties (ie -20 to all actions  with the penalty reduced by -5 at 1st lvl, 3rd lvl, 6th lvl and 9th lvl.) and the disadvantage of Chi defence lasting only 1 round per rank. (With a minutes non-use of Chi skill needed per round used).

With the addition of the Armour adjustment system however, the unarmoured Monk takes an additional 10 hits of damage when struck, +1 rnd of stun, +2 of bleeding and an increase of 10 to maneuver penalties. (Stun, bleed and man penalties only increase criticals received ie 1 round of stun will always be 2 rounds of stun for an unarmoured Monk.)

To counter this, I would like to suggest the following measures could be considered:

Chi Defence:
Option 1 - Allow Monks to use Chi defence without penalty once per day at first level and every 3rd level thereafter. (eg a 6th lvl Monk could use Chi defence 3 times in a 24 hour period without resting. Any further uses would need to be rested.)

Option 2 - Chi defence can be used multiple times BUT with additional penalties. For instance, I have 8 ranks in Chi defence (skill of 61) and activate Chi when a group of Lizardmen attack. My Chi defence expires after 8 rounds so I try to push through the exhaustion and re-activate my Chi defence. (An additional penalty of -20 is applied so my skill drops to 41. Also, even if Chi defence is successful, the -20 applies to all actions for the next 8 rounds. If I need Chi defence a 3rd time I receive a -40 penalty and I am -40 to all actions. This penalty would be combined with the standard Chi defence penalty.)

Armour adjustment:
Option 1 - Monk's develop internal control that reduces damage. For instance, an unarmoured Monk, would have -1 damage for every 3 Monk levels starting at 1st level and maxing out at level 15. Also, a Monk can disregard 1 round of stun for every 5 Monk levels starting at level 1 but maxing out at level 15. (This would mean that a level 15 Monk would receive the maximum benefits of -6 damage and -4 stun.)

Option 2 - A Monk's armour adjustment is linked to Chi Defence and the following table applies:
Chi defence ranks 1-10 (Unarmoured)
                         11-20 (Soft Leather)
                         21-30 (Rigid Leather)
etc etc
This benefit would only apply when Chi defence is being used. If Chi defence is not being used, the Monk is considered unarmoured.

The Chi defence benefits could be used without Armour adjustments being used but the other options would only apply if a group is using Martial Law Armour Adjustments.

Also, I would limit the Chi benefits to Monk class characters only (not rogues with Chi defence) and not to multi-class characters.

Any ideas would be welcome.....

[masque1223]

Alternately, you can do what I do, and just ignore the armor adjustment part of the Martial Law system.  I liked the added hit locations, but I found that part overcomplicated, so I just threw it out.

[munchy]

I like armour adjustment Option 2, although you simply also add a new skill for the monk which allows him to increase his resilience. There was a skill similar to that idea in SoHK, the RMFRP book, which would allow you to ignore crits. You could have a similar setting to you option two which would be active all the time - then this would be a real advantage for the monk, but require the development of an extra skill. The question would be, whether the skill would be available for everyone. On the other hand, if you have to develop more than ten ranks in it to get a benefit from it, thus spending at least 22 (monk) resp. 44 (others), it is questionable whether anyone is crazy enough to do this.
I don't have the talents in front of me but maybe there are talents that might be interesting for the monk or could be developed for the monk, similar to tough hide. Or he could simply learn the "Tree Skin" spell as a form of blood magic which would allow him to use an armour like ability three times a day for free ... spending 8 DPs for soft leather and 16 DPs for rigid leather, 24 DPs for a chain equivalent ... which on second thought seems to be the better idea instead of my idea presented before. Right, my first idea had the permanent effect which, however, seems a bit overpowered then.

[Pat]

Or he could simply learn the "Tree Skin" spell as a form of blood magic which would allow him to use an armour like ability three times a day for free ... spending 8 DPs for soft leather and 16 DPs for rigid leather, 24 DPs for a chain equivalent ... which on second thought seems to be the better idea instead of my idea presented before. Right, my first idea had the permanent effect which, however, seems a bit overpowered then.

I always thought of Tree Skin as a form of armour so I guess my first question would be: Can you  use Chi defence with magically created armour?

I am very interested in this answer as my character is actually a lvl 2 Monk/ lvl 2 Mage (as my post above demonstrates I didn't think a Monk would survive long as a stand alone character.) I cast Mage Armour before going into battle (scaled to chain) and can cast blade turn if required. I also have Chi defence 8 ranks (+50 DB) but I don't use both Chi defence and Mage armour together because I considered the spell as a form of armour.

Are you saying that both could be used together or would the magically created armour cancel the Chi defence bonus?

Thanks 

[Fidoric]

I guess you can as the spell do not create a material and ponderous armor.
IMO, the fact that Martial Law armor system rules the Monk out as a front line fighter is a good thing. That is precisely what Fighters are for, with their heavy armors and weapons...

[munchy]

I agree with Fidoric, I would also allow armour spells and chi defense as the spells don't create actual encumbering armour but protective magic that protects as armour. It is basically the same thing as a monk wearing a magical item that protects you like armour, e.g. a woolen shirt that protects like a chain shirt, it does not encumber but protects.

The second thought I do not share, but that it MY humble opinion, I don't really consider the fighter the only front line fighter, in our game - thus it is again a game setting/GM decision - monks and rogues are also very well fit for a direct fight.

[jurasketu]

Quote from Pat:
With the new Armour adjustment system in Martial Law the poor Monk appears to have been relegated from the ranks of a front line fighter to (at best) a secondary support character.

Quote from munchy:
The second thought I do not share, but that it MY humble opinion, I don't really consider the fighter the only front line fighter, in our game - thus it is again a game setting/GM decision - monks and rogues are also very well fit for a direct fight.


For me, the idea of a "monk" being a "military" fighter seems wrong or at least "off". Its certainly not historical. A "pure" monk is more a subterfuge character using surprise and positional advantage gained by maneuver or subterfuge. Its a little difficult to be disguised as an ancient hermit or beggar if a character is wearing plate mail and helm eh?  Personally, I think of martial arts as a complimentary fighting skill, similar to bow skills. It allows you to fight when caught off-guard in the shower, eating supper or having been disarmed. I think it works well if the monk uses a Weapon Kata style with a sword or quarterstaff. I could also see bending the the two-weapon combo style to allow Quarterstaff and Sweeps eh? Why not. As I mentioned before, my combats are typically in open ground - where almost all the characters have to at least fight defensively until the "true" fighters stop fumbling their attacks and dispatch enough bad guys to rescue the wizards, rogues and clerics.

I find the Chi abilities annoying and cumbersome but I know its good "fantasy" martial arts so its fun for lots of folks and so they should try to make it work for them.

Armor greatly reduces or eliminates the quickness bonus - so wearing no armor and using Boost Quickness +10 with a high character quickness can yield a DB of 36 to 40 which matches up well with Chain. Then with a weapon like a quarterstaff (that does Large Crits) - the monk is pretty potent. And my personal rule is - don't get hit if you're not wearing armor so parry - and if your not wearing armor BE SURE to learn some handy spells like Boost Strength, Boost Quickness, Light, etc since no need to worry about casting penalties due to armor.

If your campaign HAS a monk, I think its incumbent on the GM to provide opportunities or allow the monk to take advantage of no encumbrance from armor to swim, climb, maneuver into "good" position where the armored knight could not even imagine going.

As it is, we don't typically have monks - the warrior mage is the better "deal" - but all the characters have a martial art of one sort or another.


PS Does anyone remember the old Dragon comic strip Thrud the Barbarian? Particularly where Thrud disguised himself as an old woman by throwing a shawl over his helmet? Nevermind his bare chest, 7-foot height, massive bulk and huge battleaxe strapped across his back?

[Pat]

For me, the idea of a "monk" being a "military" fighter seems wrong or at least "off". Its certainly not historical. A "pure" monk is more a subterfuge character using surprise and positional advantage gained by maneuver or subterfuge.  

In HARP though, a Monk is definately created as a front line fighter. For example:

Fighters and Monks have favoured catagories Athletic, General, Physical and Combat (and Monks have bonus Concentration.) Fighters and Monks both get +10 to a weapon skill / martial atrs style every 5th lvl (max +30). And there professional abilities are based around combat and defence. Also, Monks and fighters only have access to universal spell lists.

Monks do not have subterfuge as a favoured catagory (Ambush, disguise and stalk and hide) so I don't believe that they were designed to be stealthy (ie Ninja style).

I think the greatest problem is that Armour Adjustments were designed to make fighters a "wanted" character again. (In our group we have had more fighter characters appear since Armour Adjustments then were ever played previously.)

The down side to this is that Monks become a significantly weaker character. I'd be interested to see how many people play a Monk character while using Armour Adjustments in ML.

Personally, I think of martial arts as a complimentary fighting skill, similar to bow skills. It allows you to fight when caught off-guard in the shower, eating supper or having been disarmed.

I can't agree with that. A Monk doesn't have to draw weapons (if not using a weapon kata). Does medium damage on the relevent table (unlike a small weapon like a dagger etc that only does small damage) and can not be disarmed (unless his hands are chopped off......Hmmm I guess that would be dis-armed)

[munchy]

It really depends on the type of game. In my games, as a GM, a monk and a rogue a very welll fit enough to fight in the front line and to beat their enemies. There are of course fighters who are better for this sort of thing but I wouldn't want a monk just as another subterfuge character.
As the HARP monk is more the RM warrior monk than the RM monk, I would also say that he is intended as a front line fighter.
I have to say, however, that we don't have that many monks in our games at the moment, actually only had two since HARP came out - including Martial Law's armour adjustment rules. They did pretty well but are usually not chosen because they seem not fitting into a quasi-Wester-medieval settting.
Those who played them though were content with their fighting abilities and really quickly resorted to spells or magical items (potions, clothing, amulets) to protect themselves in combat. (As I mentioned before, steel skin, mage armour, and tree skin are not encumbering armour in our game! Thus they are allowed for monks and for that reason really popular - especially as potion during those times when a magical pice of jewelry is not affordable.)

[choc]

If you're using ML, a monk isn't reduced to chi defense for their 'armor'.

I remember a monk in one of our campaigns (mythosa setting). He used to fight elemental style: water and fell back on mage armor potions in critical situations.

Thus, he was almost unhitable at higher lvls. He had high chi defense + dodge + (sometimes) 60DB mage armor in his first action of a round (chi: speed), if he was hit, his acrobatics rank reduced any hit almost to zero, and blowed back in his second action.
This in lvl 10 he reached near 300DB with mage armor and a 33 pts critical reduction. But we'd used H&S rather than ML .... regardless i think, he wasn't affected by ML armor reduction at all.

It was easier to hit the tank in superior plate armor + shielding weapon style than the monk for our foes.

Otherwise i would not use a monk in a shield wall - their chi defense doesn't fit to block attacks against the weak - they evade rather than block like a tank in a plate.

[Fidoric]

Otherwise i would not use a monk in a shield wall - their chi defense doesn't fit to block attacks against the weak - they evade rather than block like a tank in a plate.

That's my point, exactly. Otherwise, I agree with Munchy. A monk is a highly proficient opponent but it is more akin to a light skirmisher than a heavy infantryman. That's why I do not consider him as a front line fighter. Perhaps we were not talking about the same thing ?

[Pat]

Otherwise i would not use a monk in a shield wall - their chi defense doesn't fit to block attacks against the weak - they evade rather than block like a tank in a plate.

That's my point, exactly. Otherwise, I agree with Munchy. A monk is a highly proficient opponent but it is more akin to a light skirmisher than a heavy infantryman. That's why I do not consider him as a front line fighter. Perhaps we were not talking about the same thing ?

I think my point may have been lost. My point is basically:

A Monk is a front line fighter, he is designed to be (in Harp) but the character has been seriously devalued by Armour Adjustments.

Without Armour Adjustments a Monk is a serious fighter that can go toe to toe against most opponents.

With Armour Adjustments an unarmoured Monk can no longer be a true fighter. He is too prone to take high levels of damage (+10 hits over Rigid leather, +20 over Plate mail) and takes additional stun and bleed.

My belief that Martial Law was written from a fighters view point and Armour Adjustments were developed to make fighters a more effective character. Also, the Armour adjustments make Mages, Warrior Mages (and other spell casters) not as desirable.

Don't misunderstand, I prefer Armour adjustments and we use it in our group and I believe that it makes the characters, in general, more balanced.

Fighters have armour adjustments
Mages and Clerics have spells
Harpers, Rangers and Warrior Mages have a combination of spells and combat ability (and now they have the added thought of Armour adjustments verses spell casting penalty.)
Rogues and thieves have subterfuge.

The Monk did have Chi skills and multiple attack abilites (These skills are based around close combat though.) and these skills have been substantially reduced because of the potential to take huge amounts of hits or to be stunned for multiple rounds. And, as mentioned previously, every round a Monk is stunned is 1 less that Chi defence can be used as an attacking skill.

What I would like to get is ideas that can be used to make a Monk as effective a front line combatant under Armour adjustments as he was without to fix an imbalance in the game. (I maybe the only person who believes that there is an imbalance.)

Any thoughts are welcome.........

[munchy]

Without help from any other character you mean, right? Well, as he is not a spell caster and as there is no access for interesting spells concerning armour in the universal sphere, I'd he should go for a blood magic talent, which is not awfully expensive compared to the costs he would have for the spell. If you wanted to you could say that if he is from a special order he gets a small discount in the talent as they but special emphasis on this toughness training and he has to pay 5 DP less or something, or you make it part of a training package and apply that DP discount.
The Rigid Leather one would cost a character a mere 16 DPs for three uses a day with a duration of 16 rounds each. That would return the basic HARP core situation for these 16 rounds each day.
Chain protection for 24 rounds or rigid leather for 40 rounds would cost 60 rounds would cost 24 DPs.
All in all I would say that this is a really good option - at least for my game as most sessions don't have more than three fight sequences and only really seldomly does a fight last longer than 16, not to say 24 or even 40 rounds, never encountered one single fight that lasted that long so far.


The other only alternative I see would be introducing a new skill but I wouldn't recommend that as I'm not sure about balancing issues here.

Also, I don't think it is too bad to have something with which you have to rely on on you collegues. Some danger are just there and you can tackle them together.

Right, not helping. I vote blood magic!!

[Fidoric]

Maybe the HB version of Monk with activated chi would adress this lack of edge.
A skill like 'Adrenal toughness' allowing to temporarily ignore wounds penalties could give the monk an advantage by allowing him to maintain high DB and OB throughout a fight. I have nevder play-tested that though.
I still think that the monk is not so disadvantaged by ML. He still has a high DB and the best maneuver abilities around. He can use that to his advantage over more heavily armored and less maneuverable adversaries.

[mocking bird]

While I do like the idea of treeskin as a blood talent, the concept would need to be changed as it really isnt' a blood talent from birth but a learned ablility.  A talent to buy later would certainly make sense.  Or considering the current debate regarding damage reduction and magic armor, boost quickness essentially does the same thing as a universal spell than a more expensive sphere spell.

I was also wondering if someone has tried adding a few levels of warrior mage to a monk to get all sorts of saucy spells that resemble MAC chi powers.

Maybe the HB version of Monk with activated chi would adress this lack of edge.

Which one was that in?  I am a few Bazaar's behind.

[Fidoric]

It was in HB8. Those activated chi powers do translate well the mystical (fantastic) aspects of martial arts. (improve movement, dodge...). I hope it will suit you.

[GMLovlie]

Beware of the Taoist Monk (aka chi Monk or Mystical Monk) of HB8. I have had two players playing that profession. Whilst it is restricted, somewhat, it is still really beard. While that monk doesn?t have all the niceties of the normal Monk, as in extra attacks and such, you suddenly have a character at level one that can walk on walls, teleport and perform such silly feats, for free. Not that chi abilities are free, but they get three abilities for free at level one. Extras cost 10DPs (I think), which isn?t that expensive, but with a hefty effect.
Now, it works, for now, in my current campaign, but I am afraid that he will turn into a chi-monster and I will have to restrict it (the profession) more. At low-levels it is only slightly unbalancing, but I feel that when they reach higher levels the chi-monk will turn super-?ber-beard.

[Fidoric]

I have not playtested it yet and Rasyr warns us that it may be a little unbalanced in HB8. But I thinl it may well be what those who search to expand a monk's ability are after. Some adjustments may be required.

[GMLovlie]

indeed.

[DavidKlecker]

I rather like the idea of expanding Chi Defense for the Monk as the monk would be the only profession with specific training in Chi Defense, far greater than any other profession in Harp.

One of the following options I think would make Chi Defense a bit more proper for a Monk

1) The option stated before, a monk can re-activate Chi Defense after using it at a -20 and have a -20 to all actions afterwards.
2) Another option was based on the roll for Chi Defense by using the MM table column for Spells and adjust the Chi actions so that the duration could be augmented like a scalable spell. For example, if you wanted to augment the Chi Defense to 2 rounds a rank, then apply a negative of -20. to 5 rounds a rank, apply a modifier of -50 and for 10 rounds a rank a modifier of -100. One could also use the Spell column to determine a pass, that is rather than a 100 for pass a 71 is a pass. It makes passing the Chi Defense a little easier for the monk. Everyone else must roll a 100 and cannot scale the skill.

The only con here is it does make higher level monks next to godly in their abilities. At level 10 a Monk could have 30 ranks in Chi Defense with a bonus of 100 or 110 based on stats. To gain a duration of 5 rounds per rank the bonus is 60 and the monk need only roll an 11 or higher and he is under Chi Defense for 150 rounds. Wow! Same rules of the aftermath would apply.