Topic: RM Setting?

[shnar]

I was reading the RMX setting thread in the developer forum and would love to contribute and hear everyone else's take on it. My thoughts:

Keep setting away from Core Rule books.
I always loved how the original RM books were designed to be either used as suppliments to existing systems or as a complete system, your choice. Arms Law was always the entry point (old D&D users wanting a more detailed combat in their D&D games). If you combine a setting within the core rules, as opposed to leaving them generic for any setting, then you'll get awkward rules that only exist because of the setting. Races tend to be the first victems here. Your setting will define what your Elf or Dwarf looks like, which in turn defines their bonues, etc. If your setting has elves like ElfQuest and I want to play elves more like Tolkien's, then I feel like I'm breaking the rules to do so. All versions of SpaceMaster has this problem, the setting integrated with the Core Rules, and it's the one thing I've never liked about SM.

What's wrong with licensed property?
I know ICE has had a bad experience with a certain company about licensed products, but is it bad to have a setting that people are already familiar with? For me, it's what introduced me to Rolemaster. I wasn't looking for a system like RM, I wanted to play in the world that ICE licensed. Then, seeing the system was a stripped down system (maxed at lvl 10, ArmsLaw charts were just cooler, etc), I quickly upgraded to Rolemaster. IMHO, a lot of people have similar stories, they come to a product NOT because of the system, but because of a licensed setting.

Some settings that I think would be great for Rolemaster:
 - David Edding's Belgariad setting (many cultures, though magic would need to be rethought)
 - Sara Douglas' Wayfearer setting
 - George Lucas' Willow (there, I said it)
 - Joss Whedon's Firefly (for SM obviously)
 - Alien and/or Predator would be perfect for SM
 - Dare I say Harry Potter?

Is it bad to have Shadow World the official setting?
As a thought, ICE already owns (I think) a rich fantasy world setting that new content is still being added to that would almost be a no brainer to capitalize on. Shadow World is quite impressive and should be touted as a complete setting for campaigns. Maybe some more intro/quick adventures be written? My biggest problem with Shadow World, and it's the reason I say we should use an already-known-setting, is that I don't really care about that world. I don't know anything about it, and if I'm going to RP, I'd rather do it in a familiar setting.

There should be many settings
I don't think there should be just one official setting, rather I think there should be a few that players can pick and choose from. ICE did that a while ago with the various historical settings. I liked where they were going with it, however they tended to only produce one book and left the GM/players to their own means for generating more content/detail. At least with the game-that-shall-not-be-named, there was a TON of modules you could buy, and with that much material, GMs were rarely left hanging. So, I would propose that ICE create a few official settings (Shadow World being one of them) but make sure that more than just one book is produced for each setting. Many Ready-to-Run adventures, Regional modules, etc.

If part of core-book, make inset
If you do insist on having a core-setting included as part of the core-rules, make it a 4th booklet that is completely separate from the core-rules. I *really* like how Rolemaster is pretty much setting-agnostic and I feel like I can apply it to any setting I want. I hope any revised edition of RM will follow the same feeling. If you do want a 1-book-fits-all, perhaps you have the core setting combined with an RME version of the rules (similar to the game-that-shall-not-be-named rulebook), but keep the main RM setting-free so you can upgrade later.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head (and I hope it's ok to post this here).

-shnar

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Licensed Settings -- often want huge advances (i.e. lots of money), and working with such removes a measure of editorial control from the company itself. Additionally, most RPGs are no longer selling in the numbers that would really support licensed settings because of royalty payments to the owners of the setting. During its last few years, the old ICE often lost money on the MERP products.

Shadow World -- Shadow World is a rich and exciting setting. It also happens to be geared more towards higher level adventures and is more of a high magic setting. This does not appeal to all. ICE needs to also have a low magic setting that appeals to a wider base and is more appropriate to low level campaigns (Cyradon sort of fills this niche).

My personal choices would be to make the core books setting free (as much as possible) and then put the setting (along with any special rules required for the setting (which need to be as few as possible)) in a separate book, perhaps with a player's version of the setting book as well.

[Balhirath]

Keeping setting away from the core books.
I agree with Shnar about the race problem. It's simply not generic enough.
For a system that can be used in almost any setting, a lot of races need to be added the core rules (instead of adding them in later books).

Licensed settings
I think that the licensed settings are good to drag new players in. Mostly because they have read the book(s) or seen the movie and want to play in that world.
However there is a problem with the magic system, since most newer fantacy writers are rather detailed about how magic works and it's rarely it the way RM works.
Take Jordans "Wheel of Time" serie. I love the world and the detail in it, but the magic system is more like Ars Magica or Mage.
Eddings "Belgariad" have the same problem. I like the books, but with only a few wizards in the world, it's not really suited for roleplaying.

What I think RM needs are BOOKS.

I have from time to time played Rolemaster in The Forgotten Realms setting, just because I knew that setting from books.
Shadow World is a good setting, but it needs books to supply some background history and material for players and gm's alike.
So books and new adventures would help a lot.

Last
Involve the fans
I know that you guys listen a lot to us, which is nice, but you could actually use us more than you already do.
The easiest way would be to make some competitions.
There's a lot of us here and most of us are.. hm.. mature gamers that can and most likely will make some very good adventures. There might even be some of s that can write a novel or at least make a very good sysopsis for a novel.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Eddings "Belgariad" have the same problem. I like the books, but with only a few wizards in the world, it's not really suited for roleplaying.

I completely disagree with his.

You don't need magic users to roleplay. In fact, you really just need characters, people to play and a story to expand on for roleplaying.
I had players play characters in 14th century France without any spell to be cast (there was a woman that healed people by laying of hands amongst the PC and a witch amongst the NPCs but in no way did they ever cast a single spell) and it was huge fun. Believe me, they thought hard before drawing a sword from its scabbard. You better think twice when a gut wound will kill you after 3 hours of agony and NOBODY can do anything about it.


As far as i am concerned, licenses are fine but like Rasyr said expensive and you can't do what you want with them (useless to remind everybody what happened with the license ICE had the right to publish books about). Furthermore, modern fantasy is fine but come on, it's not like the past of humanity is not ripe with enough mythology, novels, stories, legends, real events and so on that you can't use those to imagine something new, interesting and that you are able to play with.
That's what Games Workshop did and despite the fact i dislike the way they castrated their universe in order to sell more goodies to teenagers, i think everybody will agree with me when i say it's a damn succes.

RM has a high magic setting (shadow world, which i enjoyed as a player). The low magic setting went *poof* some years ago and there never was any mid magic setting. There were NO magic settings with black ops if i am right. There also were things like Pulp adventures and Shades of Darkness. These are the kind of things i'd like to see a bit more.


An example :

Time : 1st century AD

Where : Roman Empire

What : players can play any kind of character from freed slave to nobleman.

Magic : mostly priests, gods grant powers upon their followers. There could be hedge wizards, enchantresses (celt and german mythology is ripe with magician, enchantresses and so on) and whatever you can find in your sources.

Bring it alive with common roman empire fare : troubles along the border, local magistrate disobeying their emperor and enriching themselves, slave traders, revolts, usurpations...

Develop a story arc. Create scenarios and BOOM, there you go for a new (player-made) setting. That's not that difficult. The true difficulty is to find (or rather "sense) what will sell enough books to keep a steady income. Company-wise, this must be a nightmare.

[Balhirath]

Eddings "Belgariad" have the same problem. I like the books, but with only a few wizards in the world, it's not really suited for roleplaying.

I completely disagree with his.
You don't need magic users to roleplay. In fact, you really just need characters, people to play and a story to expand on for roleplaying.

I agree in the fact that you dont need magic users to roleplay, but if you want to find an 'official' world where you can use the existing RoleMaster system without too many changes, you kinda need a world with magic.

[Moriarty]

I am not sure I agree that Shadow World is a high magic setting per definition, nor do I think it is geared towards power-level gameplay. The world history (on planetary scale) and the major world events are shaped by magic and powerful individuals, sure. But that doesn't mean the average, down-to-earth level 1 adventurer has to take part in, believe in, or even notice such things.

[shnar]

For a system that can be used in almost any setting, a lot of races need to be added the core rules (instead of adding them in later books).

Actually, I'd like to see guidelines on how to create your own races/cultures, then include a few examples, that become the only races/cultures you see in the core rulebooks.

Eddings "Belgariad" have the same problem. I like the books, but with only a few wizards in the world, it's not really suited for roleplaying.

Actually, only the Will of the Word (isn't that what it was called?) doesn't fit into RM's magic system. All the other magic in the books fits rather nicely. The witches, the warlocks, the conjurers, etc. Even the channeling magic in the books fits into RM's magic system, the dryads, the snake ppl, etc. You could come up with spell lists for these different areas and then have professions for said spell lists, etc.

And I wonder how much royalty Eddings would charge, since they aren't anywhere near as well known as Tolkien...

-shnar

[shnar]

Furthermore, modern fantasy is fine but come on, it's not like the past of humanity is not ripe with enough mythology, novels, stories, legends, real events and so on that you can't use those to imagine something new, interesting and that you are able to play with.

I have absolutely no problems with historical settings, and I liked the modules that ICE did a while ago that focused on these settings (Robin Hood, Vikings, etc), but the problem was that only one book was produced and no additional materials so the GM had no aide in crafting adventures, etc. If ICE does the route of historical settings again, please follow up with more modules.

-shnar

[Nejira]

Never was a fan of licensed products myself. But I can see shnar?s point here, it could potential get more people introduced to RM. However since licenses are expensive, I would like to see more ICE settings. Like Shadowworld, a setting made for RM and published by ICE.

I agree with Balhirath

I have from time to time played Rolemaster in The Forgotten Realms setting, just because I knew that setting from books. Shadow World is a good setting, but it needs books to supply some background history and material for players and gm's alike. So books and new adventures would help a lot.

Look at White Wolf when they publish something new. They got a book out a month, and yes that may be a bit too much. But when I am looking for a published setting, I want details and lots of em. Not terrible interested in gamestats in a settingbook, as the new Forgotten Realms books seem to be mostly these days.

Also Artwork. Need the nifty artwork to get a new kid to pick the book down from the shelves at the local store. Its the same thing with GURPs, such a wonderful system but it doesnt win at first glance. I never really understood that, is Artwork really expensive? There must be a ton of skilled artists outthere just dying for a chance to get their work in a RPG book.

/my two cents

[Maldroth]

Honestly, licenced stuff is usually niffty however at this stage I think it would be much more beneficial for ICE to develop its own settings so they have more control over the project and fit it into the niche they want to achive.

I would love to see Shadow World brought back out into the lime light more. It is iconic and fills the desire for high magic worlds.

Other fantasy sub-genres could be tapped into such as low magic, gothic or dark fantasy and the like. Depending on the presentation of the setting coupled with the flexability of RM would be great. Each setting brings something unique to RM as well so those folks that love to cut out material for their own campaigns can take what they like from the settings books as well.

[Setorn]

Well, I have not looked at Cyradon, but I have been playing RM2/C for nearly 20 years and never liked Shadow world.  It was too magically intense, and too big.  I like making my own fantasy worlds and have created many, but I would like to see a setting created for RMC.
 
What I would like ICE to do is leave Shadow World to RMFRP, Cyradon to HARP, and Setting X to RMC with conversion notes at the end of each so those who want to switch back and forth could.  I would not like to see the books released with stats for both as in the HERO & RM2 days.  Conversion notes in the core products for each setting would be very nice.
 
As for Setting X, I would like to see a system of low magic, but high fantasy.  For example, why does the world need to be round, follow Copernican Physics?  Why base the world not Aristotelian cosmology?  The Sun could revolve around the earth.  Platonic concepts of ideas and truth could really challenge the dynamic of the Realms.  Changing fundamental laws of physics and metaphysics can go a long way to creating a believable, consistent though new and different setting.   It can create mystery with out outlandish magic. 
It would be nice to see a setting where magic, technology, art, philosophy, and other aspects of culture are limited by sex, race, gender (there is a difference), and culture:  Woman’s magic, female’s Magic, Mithral production limited to Elves, etc…. 

I would not mind if creatures and treasures gave a sense of setting, but only allude to it or point to Setting X (RMC) in the flavor text.   

[shnar]

I would love to see Shadow World brought back out into the lime light more. It is iconic and fills the desire for high magic worlds.

Other fantasy sub-genres could be tapped into such as low magic, gothic or dark fantasy and the like. Depending on the presentation of the setting coupled with the flexability of RM would be great. Each setting brings something unique to RM as well so those folks that love to cut out material for their own campaigns can take what they like from the settings books as well.

I do like Shadow World and wouldn't mind more "official" support there. It's got a good base and would be wise to build on top of it.

Fantasy Hero did something similar to the latter idea, with their "Age" products (Turakian Age, Valdorian Age, etc). I think the products are really cool, but I *really* hope they follow it up with additional suppliments to support campaigns in that setting. That's where I think the Historical Settings were lacking in the original ICE products.

-shnar

[smug]

Gawd, not more mention of the Belgariad. It would hardly be fair to inflict that on your players. You'll have them reading Terry Brooks next. There ought to be a law.

I love the old SM setting. Its absence is the biggest strike against SM:P, for my money. And, to be honest, there's pretty much always going to be an implicit setting in a science fiction game. At least SM had a good one (albeit one that was rather like the Battletech universe in some respects, although I don't actually know which one was fleshed out first).

[Arioch]

What I would like ICE to do is leave Shadow World to RMFRP, Cyradon to HARP, and Setting X to RMC with conversion notes at the end of each so those who want to switch back and forth could.

Well, actually Shadow World is born with RM2 and there is much more SW material statted for that edition than for RMFRP. So I think that now you could say that we have Shadow World for RMC (and RMFRP); Echoes of Heaven for RMFRP and Cyradon for HARP.

For licensed settings... yes probably they would be cool (as it would be cool to have merp back) but I think that good original settings are better (as you can build them to fit perfectly the game rules, for example).

BTW, I don't remember if somewhere there are conversion notes for Cyradon to RM.

[Setorn]

  Isn’t most of the Shadow World (SW) material in print today for RMFRP, and Echoes of Heaven is being published (outside ICE) for both RMFRP & HARP.  I know that much material for SW was once published for RM2, but that is out of print and I would like to see another setting for RMC.  I really dislike Shadow World.  As I had stated earlier, I would rather see a setting that is more fantasy but less magic, especially when compared to SW.  I would like to see three in-house settings (under ICE’s control) one for each of the Fantasy settings and a new one for RMC.
 
What I would like to see from a new setting:
1)   Absent Copernican/Newtonian Physics
2)   Absent Hegelian/Post Modern Morality/Ethics
3)   Absent Darwinian Theory (Scientific & Social)
4)   Absent post-Freudian psychology
5)   Absent Calvinist Economics
6)   Absent Humanistic thinking (more scholastic)

Basically, I would like a fantasy world without any of the socio-politico-scientific and other developments of the post early Italian Renaissance.  Too many fantasy settings contain later philosophical developments that I feel detract from the over all feel of the pseudo-medieval affectations in most of those settings.  Shadow World is resplendent with modern concepts, and is one of the main reasons that I never cared for it.  I have not read much from Echoes from Heaven (funds limit expenditures) to be honest and do not know if it fits the bill.   As I have noted, I do normally create my own settings, but once in awhile I would like just to use something other than my work. 
 
As for licensed settings, I am sure that they are expensive and that the open game license (d20) allows any author/publisher to hire whomever they want from that realm of gaming.  I cannot see ICE using that format again.   

[Arioch]

Isn?t most of the Shadow World (SW) material in print today for RMFRP

No, the 4th edition of Master Atlas has both RMC and RMFRP stats, while the Powers of L&D book has RMC stats (but there is a conversion to RMFRP in a free pdf). The other books are all in pdf format and are based on RMC rules.

[shnar]

A Sword/Sorcery setting would be kind of cool, the Conan style of world. Hero did one called the Valdorian Age that was a nice read, though I haven't played in it yet.

One problem I see with "home-grown" worlds for any particular game system is it seems like they try to include everything they can that will accomdate the rules of the system. Which may be why you Shadow World having such high magic, ranges of cities to justify every profession from RM2, etc. I don't like that in specific settings. I see the rulebooks as a starting point, examples of what you can do, but a GM who is setting forth a setting trims it down to what is logical in his world. I don't think every spell list should be available, every profession common place, every race existing, etc.

So whatever "official" setting ICE comes up with, I think it should be a SUBSET of what's presented in the rulebooks, not a superset...

-shnar

[danbuter]

I really don't want a licensed setting. I think it will just suck away resources from ICE for little gain.

As far as default world, I don't really care for Kulthea. It's not bad, but it's not my cup of tea. I'd like ICE to publish a Hyborian-style setting. It doesn't have to be a clone of Howard's world, but if it retained that flavor, I'd love it.

[Evildead]

I really don't want a licensed setting. I think it will just suck away resources from ICE for little gain.

As far as default world, I don't really care for Kulthea. It's not bad, but it's not my cup of tea. I'd like ICE to publish a Hyborian-style setting. It doesn't have to be a clone of Howard's world, but if it retained that flavor, I'd love it.

Couldn't agree more. I tried playing in Shadow World and wasn't a big fan myself, was never really fond of high magic settings. If ICE could publish a low magic setting like Hyboria I would be very interested as well.

[smug]

Let me reiterate my opposition to any material even vaguely related to any of the literary efforts of David Eddings, who resides in the bottom pit of Fantasy Literature Hell, protected only from contact with the Infernal Ground by the presence of R.A. Salvatore underneath him (and since Salvatore's output is already tied to another game, we don't have to worry about him).